Guerrouj wasn't the best

Coevett wrote:

Notdoneyet. wrote:

Does Cram get to have EPO too?

Cram, Coe, Ovett all probably running at least 6 seconds faster than they did if they had EPO to fuel them.

Cram and Coe were the first middle distance runners to benefit from PEDs

Morceli. He was as strong as El G but could close in 50.xx.

I have to go with Jim Ryun. Here's a thread I initiated in 2012, speculating on a match race between ElG and Ryun:

https://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php%3Fthread%3D4852398&sa=U&ved=0ahUKEwipsvDqqcfaAhWryoMKHXvHDX4QFggEMAA&client=internal-uds-cse&cx=partner-pub-8687477133452597:y2r7jtxdt15&usg=AOvVaw1xFCXJ4MgPcMpU49NwSFrs

In case I screwed up the link I referenced in my previous thread. Again, a thread I started in 2012,... where I speculated about a match race between ElG and Jim Ryun.

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=4852398

Ryun is my choice for GOAT, despite the brevity of his career.

round and round wrote:

Sad, really wrote:

Morceli, Cram, Guerrouj, Ngeny, and whomever else you think fits the bill race against each other, in their prime, on Hayward Field. With perfect conditions and pacers, who do you think wins and what time does it take?

it's funny you mention Cram but not Lagat. Nick Willis has a faster pb

Lagat is the 2nd fastest ever 1500m runner

Kiprop is the 3rd fastest ever

Silas Kiplagat has a faster PB in the 1500m than Ngeny...

Andrew Wheating is 208th at 3:30.90

http://www.alltime-athletics.com/m_1500ok.htm

El G has 7 of hop 10 times. he's the best

It's funny that you don't realize that Cram set and held the WRs for 1500m, Mile and 2000m in the same year. He also was 4th fastest all-time at 800m and 2nd fastest all-time at 1000m. He was also the first sub-3:30 and sub-3:47 runner. Yes, I realize that EPO and growth hormone have allowed first Morceli and then El Guerrouj to advance the WRs so far that they have now both stayed constant for 20 years.

Bad Wigins wrote:

Are you crazy, Alan Webb would own them all.

Don't forget, when they finally go through with wiping the pre-2007 records, he will be the WR holder.

Not entirely, the European commission also proposed a framework for record elibility, the athlete needs to have been tested x number of times in the 12 months prior to the race and his sample from the day of the record needs to be accessible. If he doesn't have a sample from that pokey meet, it gets wiped.

El Guerrouj has no losses vs Bekele.

Who's the best? Whoever has the fastest indoor 1500, obviously.

Daniel Komen wins.

The Dingo^3 wrote:

Coevett wrote:

Cram, Coe, Ovett all probably running at least 6 seconds faster than they did if they had EPO to fuel them.

Knowing you, this isn't even a troll attempt.

Oh, o.k. Six seconds faster with EPO AND all the other stuff the North Africans were taking such as HGH. You seriously aren't retarded enough to believe that El G and Morcelli were naturally seconds faster faster than the Brits in the space of one decade, just by copying their training?? And since then with better testing hardly any North African has broken 3:32 other than MONACO OR not failing a test?

RunAnnArbor wrote:

In case I screwed up the link I referenced in my previous thread. Again, a thread I started in 2012,... where I speculated about a match race between ElG and Jim Ryun.

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=4852398

Ryun is my choice for GOAT, despite the brevity of his career.

Ryun was a fantastic runner in the 1960s and 1970s. Runners in the 1960s and 1970s are also mediocre compared to runners today. In spite of all of the complaints that will come from American "old-timers" obsessed with the "glory days" of amateur running (and vehement argumentation from Ventolin), Ryun does not belong in this conversation.

No, he does not get the benefit of the doubt of superior training today. The fact that he trained sub-optimally is part of what makes him an inferior runner. You don't take a slow guy who runs 20 mpw and say that he's the GOAT because of his potential. Potential counts for nothing if it's not realized.

Coevett wrote:

The Dingo^3 wrote:

Knowing you, this isn't even a troll attempt.

Oh, o.k. Six seconds faster with EPO AND all the other stuff the North Africans were taking such as HGH. You seriously aren't retarded enough to believe that El G and Morcelli were naturally seconds faster faster than the Brits in the space of one decade, just by copying their training?? And since then with better testing hardly any North African has broken 3:32 other than MONACO OR not failing a test?

Nothing indicates that the British men weren't on Non-EPO drugs such as HGH already.

With that same better testing, Kenyans like Kiprop and Kiplagat still somehow managed to drop into the 3:2Xs.

Decades ago, mid-distance running was dominated by a set of British men. Shortly after, it was dominated by a set of North Africans. Now, it's dominated by Kenyans. Among the 3 groups, only the North Africans were freely able to use EPO without any testing in their era.

Coevett wrote:

The Dingo^3 wrote:

Knowing you, this isn't even a troll attempt.

Oh, o.k. Six seconds faster with EPO AND all the other stuff the North Africans were taking such as HGH. You seriously aren't retarded enough to believe that El G and Morcelli were naturally seconds faster faster than the Brits in the space of one decade, just by copying their training?? And since then with better testing hardly any North African has broken 3:32 other than MONACO OR not failing a test?

El G had 7 of the top 8 and 13 of the top 20 times ever when he retired.

#GOAT

stateezee wrote:

Coevett wrote:

Oh, o.k. Six seconds faster with EPO AND all the other stuff the North Africans were taking such as HGH. You seriously aren't retarded enough to believe that El G and Morcelli were naturally seconds faster faster than the Brits in the space of one decade, just by copying their training?? And since then with better testing hardly any North African has broken 3:32 other than MONACO OR not failing a test?

El G had 7 of the top 8 and 13 of the top 20 times ever when he retired.

#GOAT

Seriously, what do you think Cram could have ran that night in Oslo pumped up o n EPO, hgh and the rest? He should have ran 3:44 as it was. He had essentially 5 weeks in his prime to tear up records, as opposed to nearly 10 EPO fuelled years for El G.

Coevett wrote:

stateezee wrote:

El G had 7 of the top 8 and 13 of the top 20 times ever when he retired.

#GOAT

Seriously, what do you think Cram could have ran that night in Oslo pumped up o n EPO, hgh and the rest? He should have ran 3:44 as it was. He had essentially 5 weeks in his prime to tear up records, as opposed to nearly 10 EPO fuelled years for El G.

Plenty have had the opportunity, yet none have come close to his dominance. That is why he is the GOAT. Cram couldn't hold his jockstrap.

stateezee wrote:

Coevett wrote:

Seriously, what do you think Cram could have ran that night in Oslo pumped up o n EPO, hgh and the rest? He should have ran 3:44 as it was. He had essentially 5 weeks in his prime to tear up records, as opposed to nearly 10 EPO fuelled years for El G.

Plenty have had the opportunity, yet none have come close to his dominance. That is why he is the GOAT. Cram couldn't hold his jockstrap.

Something tells me you wouldn't need much persuading.

Coevett wrote:

stateezee wrote:

Plenty have had the opportunity, yet none have come close to his dominance. That is why he is the GOAT. Cram couldn't hold his jockstrap.

Something tells me you wouldn't need much persuading.

Haha, pot meet kettle.

stateezee wrote:

Coevett wrote:

Seriously, what do you think Cram could have ran that night in Oslo pumped up o n EPO, hgh and the rest? He should have ran 3:44 as it was. He had essentially 5 weeks in his prime to tear up records, as opposed to nearly 10 EPO fuelled years for El G.

Plenty have had the opportunity, yet none have come close to his dominance. That is why he is the GOAT. Cram couldn't hold his jockstrap.

El G was also a little fortunate in having perfect timing.

When he came on the scene, distance running in Europe had already been killed by the years of EPO, in particular Britain which had dominated in the 80's. Unless you were prepared to cheat hardcore, you had no chance of winning medals at that time.

Secondly, isn't it a little bit of a coincidence that his career is almost exactly deliniated by the EPO period's start and end? I don't mean simply that it proves he was taking EPO, but he was likely one of the athletes most able to benefit from it - since he was junior, right up to the day he won his Golds in Athens and then promptly retired just before testing became stricter.

Morcelli, for example, won the silver at the 88 world juniors, so it's unlikely (though not impossible) he could have been benefitting from EPO at that point. El G, on the other hand, might have been benefitting from the insane aerobic threshold workouts that EPO could give since he was in his midteens.

He is most certainly not the only track athlete that was around after rEPO came about in the 80s until better testing came along, including plenty of Europeans, but yet no one ever came close to his number of sub 3:30s, or sub 3:28s. Not a single athlete remotely close. You're telling me he decided to dope up but no one else did? That kind of dominance is why he's the greatest.