Mens 5000m. Slower, but cleaner?

But were all those times run in one race? This is a simple listing of PRs from the Era, which isn't necessarily indicative that everyone was running that fast all of the time. I think you're misjudging this by believing that everyone ran fast back then because of how dominant El Guerrouj was and the fact that he ran fast times EVERY race, thus pulling people along to fast times. What I was to know is how many had races outside of the ones that El G ran had sub 3:30 times? El Guerrouj was an outlier in the sense that he could do it every race, whereas most people couldn't/still cant.

I don't think the talent is really any different so much (the drug testing has, though), it's just the game has changed and people are running more tactical races instead of going balls to the wall every time. If you don't believe me, remember the 2015 Monaco 1500? Six guys went under 3:30! (Compared to the 10 listed above, in which Ramzi should be removed since he was actually caught doping, thus really only being 9 "legit" times).

1 KIPROP, Asbel 3:26.69 WL,MR

2 ALG MAKHLOUFI, Taoufik 3:28.75 PB

3 MAR IGUIDER, Abdelaati 3:28.79 PB

4 GBR FARAH, Mo 3:28.93

5 NZL WILLIS, Nick 3:29.66 AR

6 KEN MANANGOI, Elijah 3:29.67 PB

If you guys can list the races in El G's era that had that many people go sub 3:30, I'm genuinely interested in seeing them, especially if El Guerrouj wasn't in them. But in conclusion, I don't think the talent is really any different - it's just that we don't see many super fast times anymore, which I attributed to the absence of Hicham El Guerrouj.

Alot of Kenyans would go 3:30/31 if El G. went say 3:29, and that would look good right now.

But the Kenyan pacemakers just don't seem to be as good any more either, especially in events 1500m and above (but this subjective and I'm probably wrong on this one).

Anybody know the specs of the Monaco track? It just seems to be a lot quicker then any other track at the moment for distance events (certainly outside of the championship/olympic tracks). Take Monaco out of the calculations are there has been a major slowing since El G. retired. Which brings us back to the fact that doping must have been rife back 15-20 years ago.

You can´t take times from only this year and compare that to the entire 1990s. Look at Monaco GP 1500 last year.

Nah I think it's that literally everyone is afraid of just going for it in a time trial 5k race. Gebrehiwet's run 12:47 before, and he wrecked everyone in the last 100 in Zurich. He basically ran a 400 meter race off of a 4600m tempo. They can absolutely go under 12:50 if they actually go for it; I think it's more that in 2016 everyone is obsessed with having the best finishing speed and it seems like that's all they're really interested in. I mean look at Kejelcha; he ran a 7:28 a few days before in Paris and destroyed Iguider in the last 100. That definitely indicates sub 12:50 potential. Honestly I think they're just b--ching out, which is lame. At least Jager went for it, even though he kinda fell apart.

5000m fan wrote:

Is this a good sign? Of a cleaner sport?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Sorry that's a very funny joke.

Bang on

bigtool05 wrote:

I think this hypothesis makes a lot of sense, but it's certainly curious that the 1500 is as fast or faster than its ever been whereas the 5k is much slower.

Good point,as you know from a physiological perspective a greater performance enhancement would come from running longer distances with EPO support.

We have a seen a leveling or equalizer with greater drug testing in the sport.

I agree with an earlier poster a talent drain from the track to the marathon with african nations looking for bigger money. A good year on the track is equal to one good marathon. Stack up a few good marathons and you have made money that is life changing for many african runners.

HardLoper wrote:

bigtool05 wrote:

I think this hypothesis makes a lot of sense, but it's certainly curious that the 1500 is as fast or faster than its ever been whereas the 5k is much slower.

No, it's expected random variation. Some events are always stronger and some are weaker at any given time. You're just looking for patters where there aren't any.

Correct answer. Look at high jump. The men are great, while women´s HJ is a joke right now. Ten years ago it was the exact opposite. You could win a men´s Golden League meet in 2,32, while the women were over two meters in most meets.

Here's a list of sub 3:30 runners since 2010

Kiprop

Kiplagat

Makh Daddy

Iguider

Farah

Kwemoi

Ndiku

Laalou

Souleiman

Willis

Manangoi

Chepseba

Wote

and Centro just beat many of them for gold. So again, more doped than ever and just as fast.

Nice story bruh wrote:

Here's a list of sub 3:30 runners since 2010

Kiprop

Kiplagat

Makh Daddy

Iguider

Farah

Kwemoi

Ndiku

Laalou

Souleiman

Willis

Manangoi

Chepseba

Wote

and Centro just beat many of them for gold. So again, more doped than ever and just as fast.

I would like to see the PBs/PRs of all these runners at the Monaco track and

Somewhere else. The Rieti track used to be the fastest for the middle distances.

Mo's fastest 5k was in Monaco in 2011.

off base wrote:

I don't know about all events, but every event from the 1500 to the 10,000 is unquestionably cleaner now than they were in the 1990s. There might be just as many dopers, just at lower levels and some that are doped to the same level as the 90s, but on average the times now are much closer to natural human limits.

You mean the events are cleaner than they were from '87 (when Rosa's filthy doped Kenyans hit the WC's) right up through 2014 as dosages dropped.

There's a lot of doped runners, especially the never tested out of season E. Africans, but the dosages are lower, and likely the drugs are different as well.

According to Ovett, the Rieti track is short.

Technology has improved dramatically?!

The only "dramatic" improvement is with tracking devices - GPS, HRM etc - which you don't mention as you're probably well aware that they're not being utilised by the elite of our sport in any widespread or systematic extent.

If you think that spikes being 20g lighter and bits of foam being available to do self massage with is a dramatic improvement then you're deluded.

Runners from the nineties could step into today's sport and be perfectly at home.

abraham chebii wrote:

ukathleticscoach wrote:

Bang on

Technology has improved dramatically?!

The only "dramatic" improvement is with tracking devices - GPS, HRM etc - which you don't mention as you're probably well aware that they're not being utilised by the elite of our sport in any widespread or systematic extent.

If you think that spikes being 20g lighter and bits of foam being available to do self massage with is a dramatic improvement then you're deluded.

Runners from the nineties could step into today's sport and be perfectly at home.

Hey, scatter-brain I'd be a cripple without my foam roller, it saved my ability to run. Spikes have improved since the mid-90s, by how much I don't know, a couple of seconds over 5K, who knows. I've seen 16 year olds go from running 9:12 to 8:36 in weeks over 3K and the only change was the Nike Victory elites. Mo Farah uses his Garmin daily and Alberto scrutinizes it for training adjustments. Ever heard of underwater treadmills, zero gravity treadmills, hypoxic tents (live high train low), cryotherapy and there have been tremendous nutritional gains and better supplements.

Mope Dealer wrote:

Nice story bruh wrote:

Here's a list of sub 3:30 runners since 2010

Kiprop

Kiplagat

Makh Daddy

Iguider

Farah

Kwemoi

Ndiku

Laalou

Souleiman

Willis

Manangoi

Chepseba

Wote

and Centro just beat many of them for gold. So again, more doped than ever and just as fast.

I would like to see the PBs/PRs of all these runners at the Monaco track and

Somewhere else. The Rieti track used to be the fastest for the middle distances.

Mo's fastest 5k was in Monaco in 2011.

Cool story and all, but Mo's fastest 5000m isn't that fast and the fastest one in recent years was in Paris.

yyy wrote:

According to Ovett, the Rieti track is short.

Any links to this?

Do you think Kejelcha and Gebhriwet are using underwater treadmills and cryotherapy? Do you think Eliud Kipchoge is living a different lifestyle to Paul Tergat?

Have a word with yourself.

Let's see. Bekele, Geb, El G even Komen all dominated and shattered records and are thought to be doped. Fast forward to now and you have a runner who was an also ran until his later 20s who is now unbeatable at the 5000/10000 and runs the 6/8th (can't remember which) fastest 1500m of all time and yet the sport is somehow cleaner? No, not possible. Farah is dirty as was Radcliffe. This is the same argument I had for years with cycling fans about Lance (I don't even watch cycling). If there's someone dominating everyone, especially others who are thought to be doped, that person is doped. I used to say the same about Clemens and all the other juiced MLB players. You can't do the things that are being done and be clean. Froome is another perfect example. It flies in the face of reason.

Let's take a look at swimming at the Olympics this year. There were records being broken in the HEATS. Records that came from Beijing where there were records falling left and right. At the time the explanation was that the new suits made the swimmers faster and that the pool made the swimmers faster. Now, in this Olympics they were killing those records without those suits and without that pool. Give me a break. If it seems to good to be true then it is. El G dominating, Bekele unbeatable at 5/10, Farah can't lose and runs one of the top times in the 1500m, the 800m going down and people running 1:42 like its 1:45, the marathon being pushed down.

Please don't tell me about the anvancents in training. That's such bs. No Kenyans are on alter Gs or underwater treadmills. And no, living at altitude or sleeping in an altitude tent or a cryosauna or all the breath rite strips can't come close to helping as much as PEDs, in spite of what Jon Orange has to say about it.

Wake up, every sport is doped.

abraham chebii wrote:

Thoughtful piece of Analysis wrote:

Hey, scatter-brain I'd be a cripple without my foam roller, it saved my ability to run. Spikes have improved since the mid-90s, by how much I don't know, a couple of seconds over 5K, who knows. I've seen 16 year olds go from running 9:12 to 8:36 in weeks over 3K and the only change was the Nike Victory elites. Mo Farah uses his Garmin daily and Alberto scrutinizes it for training adjustments. Ever heard of underwater treadmills, zero gravity treadmills, hypoxic tents (live high train low), cryotherapy and there have been tremendous nutritional gains and better supplements.

Do you think Kejelcha and Gebhriwet are using underwater treadmills and cryotherapy? Do you think Eliud Kipchoge is living a different lifestyle to Paul Tergat?

Have a word with yourself.

Kejelcha ran 13:18 or something the other day, twenty years ago Geb or Komen would've run 12:50 in the same race and Tergat would've been second in 12:55.

Did Gebhriwet run under 13 this year?

What lifestyle did Paul Tergat live? One that involved suspicious trips to Ukrainian doctors at strange times.