2:19 on 70-80 miles per week.

Below Average wrote:

Another treadmill threshold. 13 total miles.

2k: 4:57 pace, 1% incline

2x1k: 4:57 pace, 1% incline

1600: 5:00 pace, 1% incline

2x800: 5:00 pace, 1% incline

1200: 4:57 pace, 1% incline

2x800: 5:00 pace, 1% incline

1k: 5:00 pace, 1% incline

800: 4:48pace, 0% incline

800: 4:48 pace, 0% incline

800: 4:48 pace, 0% incline

800: 4:48pace, 400 0% incline, 400 2%incline

Rest 55-65ish sec

Felt pretty good and went by fairly fast. Finished with a faster pace and no incline to switch up my turnover a bit. Ive read zero incline adds 12 sec per mile? Idk if that’s true or not, but it helps the time go by quicker. Off to work until 9pm. 4 days off for deer hunting this weekend. I’m a very determined, low skilled deer hunter so really hoping i can get one Saturday morning, then relax the rest of my time off. Good day

Well…...another great workout by Phil and I`m pretty confident he will do a very good race in CIM .This was a workout pointing at 2:16-2:17 at marathon and now my plan is to have Phil run a so called negative split race on CIM day to be close to the goal 2:19 and an Olympic Trial qualifying.

drppaul wrote:

Coach JS - why the complete random interval distances during the LT sessions? Seems like there is no real rhyme or reason to how the distances are broken up.

Sometimes my runners do these "ladder thresholds" where the distance of the reps starts high and went down. It`s a very good psychological boost to handle the LT like this…..but sometimes I vary with just straight distance at the reps e.g 6-8 x 1600m and so on. The most important when doing the LT:s is to hold the same pace threw the whole workout.

But JS, in your opinion is there more value is running something like 4 x 2 miles vs. 8 x 1 mile vs. 2-1-2-1-2 miles at threshold? Are longer reps "better" for developing fitness?

To develop fitness is a total mission that has a need of a very good mix of the three main factors for the result, maxVO2 pace , LT pace and aerobic power pace ( LSD). Most important when running intervals is the total length of the workout and the right pace and the best individual recovery . So with my system there is no more value in running 4 x2 miles or 8 x 1 miles or 2-1-2-1-2 miles at the right LT pace because you get the same total length in the workout and the individual recovery back to 120 bpm will just be different in every example and the exact best recovery the runner needs after every rep. :)

SUPERIOR COACH JS wrote:

To develop fitness is a total mission that has a need of a very good mix of the three main factors for the result, maxVO2 pace , LT pace and aerobic power pace ( LSD). Most important when running intervals is the total length of the workout and the right pace and the best individual recovery . So with my system there is no more value in running 4 x2 miles or 8 x 1 miles or 2-1-2-1-2 miles at the right LT pace because you get the same total length in the workout and the individual recovery back to 120 bpm will just be different in every example and the exact best recovery the runner needs after every rep. :)

JS - in that case, why would you not always use short reps (800s or 1000s) for LT reps if all that matters is total length? Wouldn't that ensure the ability to keep proper pace more easily?

This guy sounds like a douche.

I think the value in running 4 x2 miles or 8 x 1 miles or 2-1-2-1-2 miles is that the athlete learns pace and builds confidence and the hard efforts are longer. When I could do 6 x 1 mile under 5 minute pace, 5:20 pace felt pretty damn easy. With your system I am not sure how the athlete learns pace or perceived effort. I really like mixing up distances in workouts and doing ladders but occasionally its good to run nice round even distances. Your athlete would receive a huge mental and physical benefit from substituting the three workouts above for just three of your longer weekly workouts prior to his marathon , if there's not enough time even two of them would help him. He would have a good barometer of his fitness, more confidence and a better sense of pace.

As I said total length of the workout,right pace and the best individual recovery are of most importance, When you run different length of reps sometimes you get the extra stimulus of faster or slower recovery time and also you get some variety good for the mind.

Far Out West wrote:

I think the value in running 4 x2 miles or 8 x 1 miles or 2-1-2-1-2 miles is that the athlete learns pace and builds confidence and the hard efforts are longer. When I could do 6 x 1 mile under 5 minute pace, 5:20 pace felt pretty damn easy. With your system I am not sure how the athlete learns pace or perceived effort. I really like mixing up distances in workouts and doing ladders but occasionally its good to run nice round even distances. Your athlete would receive a huge mental and physical benefit from substituting the three workouts above for just three of your longer weekly workouts prior to his marathon , if there's not enough time even two of them would help him. He would have a good barometer of his fitness, more confidence and a better sense of pace.

More importantly though (in my opinion), is what these workouts truly are. BelowAverage is running these workouts at LT, which is the key. Who cares a ton whether JS subsitutes with a longer cruise interval session? I also remember doing 6x1mile under 5 minutes...or 4x1 mile in the 4:40's...but these were very hard workouts with 5 minutes rest. VO2max type workouts. No doubt 5:20 felt easy for me as well back then.

But the key is JS is having him do these LT repeats with short rest (based on HR, but it is short rest). This is continuing to drive BelowAverage's threshold in a better direction. It won't matter whether he does 4x2miles @ LT or whether he does what JS prescribes @ LT. BelowAverage is getting the goal benefit from this.

In any account, I am still skeptical (curious maybe) on the 20x400's. We will see. But the LT sessions are great. I think BelowAverage will be surprised at how well he does with the way these LT sessions are going. They are key to any greater runner ( sometimes not understood well enough) and I believe his progress shows he's in amazing shape.

SUPERIOR COACH JS wrote:

drppaul wrote:

JS - in that case, why would you not always use short reps (800s or 1000s) for LT reps if all that matters is total length?Wouldn't that ensure the ability to keep proper pace more easily?

As I said total length of the workout,right pace and the best individual recovery are of most importance, When you run different length of reps sometimes you get the extra stimulus of faster or slower recovery time and also you get some variety good for the mind.

Do you not have an ultimate goal to build up to a massive session like 9 or 10 x 1 mile at LT pace which would be harder both physiologically and psychologically than shorter length reps at the same total volume?

King Harold wrote:

SUPERIOR COACH JS wrote:

As I said total length of the workout,right pace and the best individual recovery are of most importance, When you run different length of reps sometimes you get the extra stimulus of faster or slower recovery time and also you get some variety good for the mind.

Do you not have an ultimate goal to build up to a massive session like 9 or 10 x 1 mile at LT pace which would be harder both physiologically and psychologically than shorter length reps at the same total volume?

He already did 10-12 x 3/4 mile at LT pace . And of course I intend to build Phil further to e.g LT:s like 10 x mile but also up to more than that in the future. But see it like this, he has already done a 15:08 5 k and a PR at 10 miles in my relatively short coaching of him. We build with one stone at a time . I know things that tells me he can reach the American top 10 marathoners in a few years. The Art of coaching as I advocate is to just put on pressure that I always know that my runners will manage without asking too much and overdo things. Always perfect control and only doing enough what it takes to reach the goal. :)

Hey guys! Don't you get it ? We are witnesses to the birth of the new Lydiard, but on low mileage.

But does he really need to work on LT (or building specific velocity at LT)? Seems like he has plenty of speed and a lot of guys can run 1km and mile repeats at sub 5-min pace. Just like lots of guys can do 20 x 400m in 68 on a short rest. What is harder is something like 3 x 3 miles or 3 x 5km at around LT. Whats most important is that his Marathon Pace that is closer to LT. The Aerobic Threshold and Max Steady State for prolonged periods of time (ie well over 90min). Sure it would help to shift the LT downwards and have more "wiggle room" but specific running Economy slightly slower than LT needs to be there....and the strength/stamina to not falter after 18-22 miles. I ran 2:21 in college off of 5k/10km training (70-80mpw during the season) and then a few long runs over 20-miles and a few weeks over 110mpw.....basically never touched marathon pace but had some long runs with a lot of 5:35-5:40 mile splits and then a lot of faster workouts at 5:00 to 4:50 pace. Certainly speed and intensity around LT has its benefits for marathon training and building specific economy. Certainly Phil has the speed and talent for the OTQ.

Well....,Sage :) You ask: "But does he really need to work on LT( or building specific velocity at LT) ? Why don`t you try to ask the same question to Kipchoge or Kamworor? LoL :)

Now listen Sage ........ are you not curious to see what could happen if I coached you? Maybe run faster than ever.......

Coaching over 300 runners of different levels and all improved in just 4 years tells something I think? The LT intervals at right pace was the main difference for me back in the -80s to do 13:30/28:00 instead of my PR:s 14:20/ 29:51 at 5k/10 k.

- The Wizard - :)

Sage, were you agreeing or disagreeing with his approach? I am confused.

saged wrote:

Sage, were you agreeing or disagreeing with his approach? I am confused.

Sounds like he's agreeing that LT is very important, but equally important is spending long chunks of time at paces between LT and MP.

Those are paces we're not seeing in JS's approach. I think it's one of the reasons so many of us are curious to see the results of the training.

It's true, but Daniels has very few runs not at LT for his marathon training and folks run very well off of that.

saged wrote:

Sage, were you agreeing or disagreeing with his approach? I am confused.

Hey guys! It doesn`t matter if Sage agree or disagree)) However, we don`t escape the fact that the system has improved

over 300 runners of different levels in just 4 years online coaching.And don`t forget that Phil already has run a PR with the system at 10 miles.

-Magic Winter -

You discredit yourself when you call your system magic and you offer sketchy details.