East Africans are not genetically superior

Renato Canova wrote:

Number 33, or Coevett, or every other person you are, your thesis are completely laughable.

You can find here the results in your beloved 800m of all the Commonwealth Games, from when Kenyans had the first track (I will wxplain you something about the history of Kenyan athletics in some other thread) :

1966 (Kingston)

1) Noel Clough (AUS) 1'46"9

2) Wilson Kiprugut (KEN) 1'47"2

3) George Kerr (JAM) 1'47"2

First UK athlete : Chris Carter (5) 1'48"1

1970 (Edinburgh)

1) Robert Ouko (KEN) 1'46"89

2) Benedict Cayenne (Trinidad) 1'47"42

3) Bill Smart (CAN) 1'47"43

First UK athlete : John Davies (5) 1'47"79

1974 (Christchurch)

1) Wilson Kiprugut (KEN) 1'43"91

2) Mike Boit (KEN) 1'44"39

3) John Walker (NZ) 1'44"92

First UK athlete : Andy Carter (5) 1'45"97

1978 (Edmonton)

1) Mike Boit (KEN) 1'46"39

2) Seymour Newman (JAM) 1'47"30

3) Peter Lemashon (KEN) 1'47"57

First UK athlete : Garry Cook (5) 1'48"06

1982 (Brisbane)

1) Peter Bourke (AUS) 1'45"18

2) James Maina Boi (KEN) 1'45"45

3) Chris McGeorge (UK) 1'45"60

1986 (Edinburgh)

1) Steve Cram (UK) 1'43"22

2) Tom McKean (UK) 1'44"80

3) Peter Elliott (UK) 1'45"42

KENYA didn't send the Team because of financial problems

1990 (Auckland)

1) Sanuel Tirop (KEN) 1'45"98

2) Nixon Kiprotich (KEN) 1'46"00

3) Matthew Yates (UK) 1'46"62

1994 (Victoria - CAN)

1) Patrick Konchellah (KEN) 1'45"18

2) Hezekiel Sepeng (RSA) 1'45"76

3) Savier Ngidhi (ZIM) 1'46"06

First UK athlete : Craig Winrow (4) 1'46"91

1998 (Kuala Lumpur)

1) Japhet Kimutai (KEN) 1'43"82

2) Hezekiel Sepeng (RSA) 1'44"44

3) Johan Botha (RSA) 1'44"57

First UK athlete : Andy Hart (5) 1'45"71

2002 (Manchester)

1) Mbual Mulaudzi (RSA) 1'46"32

2) Joseph Mutua (KEN) 1'46"57

3) Kris McCarthy (AUS) 1'46"79

No UK athletes in the final. Not qualified in the heats Chris Robb, Neil Speaight, Joel Kidger and Matthew Stone

2006 (Melbourne)

1) Alex Kipchirchir (KEN) 1'45"88

2) Achraf Tadili (CAN) 1'46"93

3) John Litei (KEN) 1'46"98

James McIlroy not qualified in the semifinal

2010 (New Dehli)

1) Boaz Lalang (KEN) 1'46"60

2) Richard Kiplagat (KEN) 1'46"95

3) Abraham Kibwane (KEN) 1'47"37

First UK athlete : Gareth Warburton (4) 1'48"59

2014 (Glasgow)

1) Nijel Amos (BOT) 1'45"18

2) David Rudisha (KEN) 1'45"48

3) Andrè Olivier (RSA) 1'46"03

Two UK athletes in the final : Guy Learmonth (6) 1'46"69 and Michael Rimmer (7) 1'46"71

2018 (Gold Coast)

1) Wiclyffe Kinyamal (KEN) 1'45"11

2) Kyle Langford (UK) 1'45"16

3) Luke Matthews (AUS) 1'45"60

This mean that in 14 editions, Kenya won 9 Gold medals, 7 silver and 3 bronze, followed by Australia (2 gold and 2 bronze), UK (1 gold, 2 silver and 2 bronze, sweeping the podium in the only year without Kenyan Team...), South Africa (1 gold, 2 silver and 2 bronze), Botswana (1 gold), Jamaica (2 silver), Canada (1 silver and 1 bronze), Trinidad (1 silver), Zimbabwe and New Zealand with 1 bronze.

The situation of the UK athletes (that can always put in the championships athletes from 4 different Countries : Engalnd, Scotland, Wales and Ulster) doesn't seem the one of one Country that can dominate the World having more talent than everybody else. In the past, there was already somebody speaking about the Arian Supremacy, and I remember didn't finish very well.

Mr. Dopkemboi Kipcheater wrote:

This is probably the most rational post in this debate.

I wonder why do you discuss genetics in track runners when the entire athletics became a Third World doping cesspit? It's pointless.

Is there something “rotten” about cycling in Slovenia[...]

In recent years, Slovenian cycling has recorded a large number of doping positives. According to our census, 8 of the 19 Slovenian riders present in the World Tour in the last ten years have been suspended for doping, sometimes before or after their passage in the elite. That is 42% of them, a huge proportion considering the weak efficiency of the fight against doping.

Bordering countries with solid anti-doping laws - Austria and Italy - Slovenia was considered, ten years ago, as doping heaven.

When he learned of the dismantling of Mark Schmidt's network (Aderlass), he pondered in the local newspaper Nachrichten : “You have to be stupid to do this in Austria, given the rigidity of the anti-doping law here. You can do it everywhere else, like in Slovenia where probably nothing is happening. "

He himself had obtained in Slovenia ampoules of DynEPO for his athletesand the centrifuge needed for his trafficking of blood bags, as he told it in his confession book in 2011. He came back one day with 180,000 units of DynEPO in the trunk, enough to power an entire cycling team over a three-week race.

It is also a former Slovenian athlete who supplied DynEPO to the Rabobank team members, Michael Boogerd and Thomas Dekker, according to the latter's testimony in his book.

Mr. Dopkemboi Kipcheater wrote:

[quote]Neuropsychiatrist wrote:

The last time I checked your NHANES health surveys, the average black übermensch in the United States was 177 cm tall. That's not even the current European average (178 cm).

You live in a fantasy brainwashing world. (LOL)

Czech Guy wrote:

3/ The 400 m is another mind-boggling case, because due to the importance of absolute anaerobic power, runners are currently 187-188 cm tall on the average. This explains, why black Americans almost completely dominate this event, because with 178 cm, they are by far the tallest West African population in the world. The second highest number in a population of West African ancestry that I have found is 174 cm in Jamaicans. In West Africa, the averages usually range between 170-175 cm.

Mr. Dopkemboi Kipcheater wrote:

So your only argument is "Blah blah blah"? It seems that your brain, washed out by the daily propaganda from your truthful media, cannot respond to logical and legitimate questions. Where are your white sprinters and jumpers?

Mr. Dopkemboi Kipcheater wrote:

Several years ago, I looked at the annual IAAF rankings in the long jump and I was trying to find the best US white jumper.

I remember that even when I got under 800 cm, I was not able to find a single one.

SquaredCircled wrote:

Mr. Dopkemboi Kipcheater wrote:

So your only argument is "Blah blah blah"? It seems that your brain, washed out by the daily propaganda from your truthful media, cannot respond to logical and legitimate questions. Where are your white sprinters and jumpers?

Did you know that the fastest White 100m sprinter in 2019 was an American ?

Devin Quinn, 10"01 in the 100 metres ? Faster than any European ?

Unfortunately, he bombed out in the 1st round of the Olympic trials.

But here is the problem, had Quinn been a Czech for example , with his PB, he would probably (I am being polite) have made it , in the USA, even a Black Sprinter running 9"90 may not make the team. You do understand that the level of competition in the USA is different ? T

Mr. Dopkemboi Kipcheater wrote:

Several years ago, I looked at the annual IAAF rankings in the long jump and I was trying to find the best US white jumper.

Now, please try do to do the same thing with US Black pole vaulters. Or is that ESPN who's brainwashing Blacks into not entering this event ?

I remember that even when I got under 800 cm, I was not able to find a single one.

I am.

I cant tell whether you are vicious or simply dense. I would be happy to debate with you, but I fear it would be pointless.

I am curious but do all the people with whom you're maintening "personal communications" know who you are ?

Renato Canova wrote:

Mr. brainless legend, I explain very easy the reasons of that situation.

Till 1980, Kenyans never trained out of the stadium, because normal people threated them saying "go to work in your farm" every time they saw somebody running on the road. For them, somebody had to run for some specific reason only : going to school, having some appointment, escaping from animals attacking them, etc...

Kipchoge Keino told me he had 3 sessions per week, all with intervals, and that built his aerobic power only running every day for going to school when was young (about 16 km per day).

So, their "basic" training was something natural, and the real specific training was all in the track.

That's the reason because Kenyans started with strong athletes in the shortest distance, the 800m

You have also to remember that the first track in Kenya was built by John Velzian, English coach sent Kenya by the English Government in 1957 with the specific task to develop the sport in the Colony.

John Velzian built the first track in 1959, in a place 18 km far from Nairobi, where there was the training for workers in the first Post Offices in the Country. Only other few tracks had been built before the Independence of 1963, among them the two most famous were in Kapsabet (Nandi Region) and Iten - Kamariny.

This explains also because Kenyan, opposite of Ethiopian, never had specialist of long run.

The first athlete reaching a final in big Championships was Nyandika Maiyoro, who in Rome Olympics (1960) achieved a surprising 6th position in 5000m with the NR of 13'51"8.

I well remember that, that period, physiologists believed in the "black race", and, since black people were the best in sprint, they supposed the attitude of original athletes from Africa (including Americans, Caribbeans and Brazilians coming from Nigerian slaves of 200 year before) was only to be fast.

With John Velzian, the first Kenyans to benefit were sprinters.

In Commonwealth 1962 in Perth, Seraphino Antao won the 100 yards in 9"53 and 220yards in 21"28 after running in the semifinal in 21"19. Perth was also the first international race for Kip Keino (5th in a Heat of Mile in 4'07"2) and for Wilson Kiprugut (5th in a heat of 400m in 49"06. No Kenyans in steeple and in Marathon.

The first Kenyan running a Marathon was Philipp Ndoo, that after retired became the assistant of John Velzian in the IAAF Development Center, founded by Primo Nebiolo. Ndoo was, if I remember, after the 60th position in Tokyo 1964, and again ran the Marathon in the CG 1970 in Edinburgh, finishing in 15th position with 2:22'40".

Only for preparing Olympics in Mexico City (1968) Kenyan athletes started running outside the Stadiums, and immediately discovered their talent in long distances.

With only one year of specific preparation, in the CG of Kingston (1966), Naftali Temu destroied Ron Clarke (WR holder) in the 6 miles (27'14"21 against 27'39"42) with the first Britons, Jim Alder, well far (28'15"4). Kip Keino won the Mile in 3'55"34, betaing Allan Simpson (3'57"27).

In OG 1968, altitude played an imèportant role in the medals of African Countries. Kip Keino won Gold in 1500m with 3'34"91 and silver in 5000m, Temu won 10000m and Amos Biwott the steeple. However, while Ethiopians won for the third time in a row the Marathon (Mamo Wolde after the two Gols of Abebe Bikila), still Kenyans didn't have any specialist and put Naftali Temu (after winning 10000m and running twice 5000m winning bronze) without specific preparation for a final 19th place in 2:32'36".

The CG 1970 saw the victory of Charles Asati in 400m (45"01) after getting bronze in 200m (20"74), Gold for Robert Ouko (800m in 1'46"89), Kip Keino (1500m in 3'36"68 + bronze in 5000m), silver for Ben Jipcho in steeple (8'29"6) and bronze for Amos Biwott (8'30"8).

But Olympics 1972 in Munchen saw the incredible victory of the Relay 4x400 (Charles Asati, Hezekiel Nyamau, Robert Ouko and Julius Sang) in 2'59"83, after the bronze of Sang (44"92) and the 4th place of Asati (45"13) in the individual race. Kip Keino won again two medals, but his gold comes in a new (for hi) event, 3000 steeple, in front of his teammate Ben Jipcho, silver. Keino won still silver in 1500m after Pekka Vasala, and another bronze came in 800m from Mike Boit. However, the long distances didn't present any good runner : in 10000m, Paul Mose was lapped in the final, and Richard Juma didn't qualify in the heats. Still no Marathon runners, far from their mentality.

In CG 1974, Kenyans dominated the Games, winning 400m with Charles Asati, 800m with Wilson Kiprugut (Mike Boit silver), 5000m and 3000m steeple with Ben Jipcho (13'14"30 beating Brendan Foster, and 8'20"67, after getting bronze in 1500m with his PB of 3'33"16), and showed some improvement in 10000m (bronze in 27'56"96 with Richard Juma), but the big personage was the Tanzanian Filbert Bayi, able to better the WR of Jim Ryun running, always in front, 3'32"16. Looking at the Marathon, won by Ian Thompson with 2:09'12", Kenyans were still... amateurs (Kiptanui Sirma in 20th position with 2:38'04"...).

The times in Marathon clearly show a lack of long endurance, for the reason I explained before. So, we can say that the most important results achieved by Kenyans in the short distances, were not a sign of best attitude for those events, but were the only distances they could prepare on the track, before changing mentality and starting to run a higher volume on the roads and in the forest.

In the next post, I will explain some history between 1974 and 1996.

Mr. Dopkemboi Kipcheater wrote:

Renato Canova wrote:

Mr. brainless legend, I explain very easy the reasons of that situation.

Till 1980, Kenyans never trained out of the stadium, because normal people threated them saying "go to work in your farm" every time they saw somebody running on the road. For them, somebody had to run for some specific reason only : going to school, having some appointment, escaping from animals attacking them, etc...

Kipchoge Keino told me he had 3 sessions per week, all with intervals, and that built his aerobic power only running every day for going to school when was young (about 16 km per day).

So, their "basic" training was something natural, and the real specific training was all in the track.

That's the reason because Kenyans started with strong athletes in the shortest distance, the 800m

You have also to remember that the first track in Kenya was built by John Velzian, English coach sent Kenya by the English Government in 1957 with the specific task to develop the sport in the Colony.

John Velzian built the first track in 1959, in a place 18 km far from Nairobi, where there was the training for workers in the first Post Offices in the Country. Only other few tracks had been built before the Independence of 1963, among them the two most famous were in Kapsabet (Nandi Region) and Iten - Kamariny.

This explains also because Kenyan, opposite of Ethiopian, never had specialist of long run.

The first athlete reaching a final in big Championships was Nyandika Maiyoro, who in Rome Olympics (1960) achieved a surprising 6th position in 5000m with the NR of 13'51"8.

I well remember that, that period, physiologists believed in the "black race", and, since black people were the best in sprint, they supposed the attitude of original athletes from Africa (including Americans, Caribbeans and Brazilians coming from Nigerian slaves of 200 year before) was only to be fast.

With John Velzian, the first Kenyans to benefit were sprinters.

In Commonwealth 1962 in Perth, Seraphino Antao won the 100 yards in 9"53 and 220yards in 21"28 after running in the semifinal in 21"19. Perth was also the first international race for Kip Keino (5th in a Heat of Mile in 4'07"2) and for Wilson Kiprugut (5th in a heat of 400m in 49"06. No Kenyans in steeple and in Marathon.

The first Kenyan running a Marathon was Philipp Ndoo, that after retired became the assistant of John Velzian in the IAAF Development Center, founded by Primo Nebiolo. Ndoo was, if I remember, after the 60th position in Tokyo 1964, and again ran the Marathon in the CG 1970 in Edinburgh, finishing in 15th position with 2:22'40".

Only for preparing Olympics in Mexico City (1968) Kenyan athletes started running outside the Stadiums, and immediately discovered their talent in long distances.

With only one year of specific preparation, in the CG of Kingston (1966), Naftali Temu destroied Ron Clarke (WR holder) in the 6 miles (27'14"21 against 27'39"42) with the first Britons, Jim Alder, well far (28'15"4). Kip Keino won the Mile in 3'55"34, betaing Allan Simpson (3'57"27).

In OG 1968, altitude played an imèportant role in the medals of African Countries. Kip Keino won Gold in 1500m with 3'34"91 and silver in 5000m, Temu won 10000m and Amos Biwott the steeple. However, while Ethiopians won for the third time in a row the Marathon (Mamo Wolde after the two Gols of Abebe Bikila), still Kenyans didn't have any specialist and put Naftali Temu (after winning 10000m and running twice 5000m winning bronze) without specific preparation for a final 19th place in 2:32'36".

The CG 1970 saw the victory of Charles Asati in 400m (45"01) after getting bronze in 200m (20"74), Gold for Robert Ouko (800m in 1'46"89), Kip Keino (1500m in 3'36"68 + bronze in 5000m), silver for Ben Jipcho in steeple (8'29"6) and bronze for Amos Biwott (8'30"8).

But Olympics 1972 in Munchen saw the incredible victory of the Relay 4x400 (Charles Asati, Hezekiel Nyamau, Robert Ouko and Julius Sang) in 2'59"83, after the bronze of Sang (44"92) and the 4th place of Asati (45"13) in the individual race. Kip Keino won again two medals, but his gold comes in a new (for hi) event, 3000 steeple, in front of his teammate Ben Jipcho, silver. Keino won still silver in 1500m after Pekka Vasala, and another bronze came in 800m from Mike Boit. However, the long distances didn't present any good runner : in 10000m, Paul Mose was lapped in the final, and Richard Juma didn't qualify in the heats. Still no Marathon runners, far from their mentality.

In CG 1974, Kenyans dominated the Games, winning 400m with Charles Asati, 800m with Wilson Kiprugut (Mike Boit silver), 5000m and 3000m steeple with Ben Jipcho (13'14"30 beating Brendan Foster, and 8'20"67, after getting bronze in 1500m with his PB of 3'33"16), and showed some improvement in 10000m (bronze in 27'56"96 with Richard Juma), but the big personage was the Tanzanian Filbert Bayi, able to better the WR of Jim Ryun running, always in front, 3'32"16. Looking at the Marathon, won by Ian Thompson with 2:09'12", Kenyans were still... amateurs (Kiptanui Sirma in 20th position with 2:38'04"...).

The times in Marathon clearly show a lack of long endurance, for the reason I explained before. So, we can say that the most important results achieved by Kenyans in the short distances, were not a sign of best attitude for those events, but were the only distances they could prepare on the track, before changing mentality and starting to run a higher volume on the roads and in the forest.

In the next post, I will explain some history between 1974 and 1996.

I am sorry but it was too long. I didn't read it. Was it another fairy tale about a Kenyan, who improved from 27:30 to 26:30 within a single week?

rekrunner wrote:

Mr. Dopkemboi Kipcheater wrote:

… for a long time I was baffled by the fact that every year, Kenyans were able to produce 1-2 world class runners in the 800 m, but they were not similarly successful in the longer distance (1500 m) - which goes against common sense. As I already mentioned, they were not able to break 3:32 without EPO. After much thought, I had to come to a single rational, non-biological explanation: The international competition in the 800 m has always been markedly smaller than in the 1500 m, because of the higher prestige of the traditional mile.

As I told “Number 33” the 800m and 1500m are not the events that best demonstrate Kenyan superiority.

It’s like rating Jimi Hendrix, or Carlos Santana, or Bob Dylan on their voice.

You have mentioned EPO and 3:32, but why are you linking these two together?

One only need to look at World Cross Country, in the ‘80s, before foreign managers and EPO to see evidence of Kenyan domination potential.

Renato Canova wrote:

Mr. brainless legend, I explain very easy the reasons of that situation.

Till 1980, Kenyans never trained out of the stadium, because normal people threated them saying "go to work in your farm" every time they saw somebody running on the road. For them, somebody had to run for some specific reason only : going to school, having some appointment, escaping from animals attacking them, etc...

Kipchoge Keino told me he had 3 sessions per week, all with intervals, and that built his aerobic power only running every day for going to school when was young (about 16 km per day).

So, their "basic" training was something natural, and the real specific training was all in the track.

That's the reason because Kenyans started with strong athletes in the shortest distance, the 800m

You have also to remember that the first track in Kenya was built by John Velzian, English coach sent Kenya by the English Government in 1957 with the specific task to develop the sport in the Colony.

John Velzian built the first track in 1959, in a place 18 km far from Nairobi, where there was the training for workers in the first Post Offices in the Country. Only other few tracks had been built before the Independence of 1963, among them the two most famous were in Kapsabet (Nandi Region) and Iten - Kamariny.

This explains also because Kenyan, opposite of Ethiopian, never had specialist of long run.

The first athlete reaching a final in big Championships was Nyandika Maiyoro, who in Rome Olympics (1960) achieved a surprising 6th position in 5000m with the NR of 13'51"8.

I well remember that, that period, physiologists believed in the "black race", and, since black people were the best in sprint, they supposed the attitude of original athletes from Africa (including Americans, Caribbeans and Brazilians coming from Nigerian slaves of 200 year before) was only to be fast.

With John Velzian, the first Kenyans to benefit were sprinters.

In Commonwealth 1962 in Perth, Seraphino Antao won the 100 yards in 9"53 and 220yards in 21"28 after running in the semifinal in 21"19. Perth was also the first international race for Kip Keino (5th in a Heat of Mile in 4'07"2) and for Wilson Kiprugut (5th in a heat of 400m in 49"06. No Kenyans in steeple and in Marathon.

The first Kenyan running a Marathon was Philipp Ndoo, that after retired became the assistant of John Velzian in the IAAF Development Center, founded by Primo Nebiolo. Ndoo was, if I remember, after the 60th position in Tokyo 1964, and again ran the Marathon in the CG 1970 in Edinburgh, finishing in 15th position with 2:22'40".

Only for preparing Olympics in Mexico City (1968) Kenyan athletes started running outside the Stadiums, and immediately discovered their talent in long distances.

With only one year of specific preparation, in the CG of Kingston (1966), Naftali Temu destroied Ron Clarke (WR holder) in the 6 miles (27'14"21 against 27'39"42) with the first Britons, Jim Alder, well far (28'15"4). Kip Keino won the Mile in 3'55"34, betaing Allan Simpson (3'57"27).

In OG 1968, altitude played an imèportant role in the medals of African Countries. Kip Keino won Gold in 1500m with 3'34"91 and silver in 5000m, Temu won 10000m and Amos Biwott the steeple. However, while Ethiopians won for the third time in a row the Marathon (Mamo Wolde after the two Gols of Abebe Bikila), still Kenyans didn't have any specialist and put Naftali Temu (after winning 10000m and running twice 5000m winning bronze) without specific preparation for a final 19th place in 2:32'36".

The CG 1970 saw the victory of Charles Asati in 400m (45"01) after getting bronze in 200m (20"74), Gold for Robert Ouko (800m in 1'46"89), Kip Keino (1500m in 3'36"68 + bronze in 5000m), silver for Ben Jipcho in steeple (8'29"6) and bronze for Amos Biwott (8'30"8).

But Olympics 1972 in Munchen saw the incredible victory of the Relay 4x400 (Charles Asati, Hezekiel Nyamau, Robert Ouko and Julius Sang) in 2'59"83, after the bronze of Sang (44"92) and the 4th place of Asati (45"13) in the individual race. Kip Keino won again two medals, but his gold comes in a new (for hi) event, 3000 steeple, in front of his teammate Ben Jipcho, silver. Keino won still silver in 1500m after Pekka Vasala, and another bronze came in 800m from Mike Boit. However, the long distances didn't present any good runner : in 10000m, Paul Mose was lapped in the final, and Richard Juma didn't qualify in the heats. Still no Marathon runners, far from their mentality.

In CG 1974, Kenyans dominated the Games, winning 400m with Charles Asati, 800m with Wilson Kiprugut (Mike Boit silver), 5000m and 3000m steeple with Ben Jipcho (13'14"30 beating Brendan Foster, and 8'20"67, after getting bronze in 1500m with his PB of 3'33"16), and showed some improvement in 10000m (bronze in 27'56"96 with Richard Juma), but the big personage was the Tanzanian Filbert Bayi, able to better the WR of Jim Ryun running, always in front, 3'32"16. Looking at the Marathon, won by Ian Thompson with 2:09'12", Kenyans were still... amateurs (Kiptanui Sirma in 20th position with 2:38'04"...).

The times in Marathon clearly show a lack of long endurance, for the reason I explained before. So, we can say that the most important results achieved by Kenyans in the short distances, were not a sign of best attitude for those events, but were the only distances they could prepare on the track, before changing mentality and starting to run a higher volume on the roads and in the forest.

In the next post, I will explain some history between 1974 and 1996.