How many NCAA violations will be committed in the courting of Mary Cain?

In the NCAA world, the key phase here is "extra benefits":

The NCAA defines an extra benefit as any special arrangement by an institutional employee or a representative of the institution's athletics interest to provide a student-athlete (or a student-athlete's relative or friend) a benefit that is not generally available to other University students and their relative and/or friends or, is not expressly authorized by NCAA legislation.

To be completely in compliance, a professional athlete OR coach (Jenny Simpson, Robby Andrews...) cannot train with a team during regularly scheduled team practices unless as a volunteer assistant or an official coach. See the University of Colorado coaching staff, for example. For the same reason, Salazar cannot be out there during regularly scheduled training sessions at an NCAA institution, running training for one athlete as part of a special arrangement by the institution. Consider, though, that Bob Kersee writes the training schedules for hurdlers and I believe multi-events at UCLA and is officially listed as a volunteer assistant on the female side.

What if I told you it was possible to attend college in a different manner than full time for 4 years from the ages of ~18-~22?[/quote]

You'd be lying because we all know that you can only learn between ages 18 - 22. After 22 years your brain shuts down and does not allow any more knowledge to enter it. If MC doesn't go to college rather than pursuing her talent, then she will end up broke and unemployable because without an NCAA career it is impossible to be a pro runner. If she goes to the NCAA and gives it away for free for 4 years she will never get injured and will shoot to the top as soon as she graduates. If she goes pro at 18 (or 17 or whenever) she will die homeless and unloved in short order just like every other soul who didn't go to college.

Obviously.

NCAA needs its pool of unpaid workers to justify its existence. Let's have MC spend the next 4 years running relays at dual meets with hobby joggers who can't break 4:10 in the 1500 while her African and ROW peers are honing their skills in the Diamond League and other international meets.

The Mary Cain of swimming is actually Missy Franklin who won four gold medals and a bronze at the London Olympics and pocketed $450,000.00 from US swimming and then went back to her high school for her senior year and swam at this years state championships. Missy will further her education at UC Berkley all the while keeping her college eligibility.

Or would Mary Cain be considered the Missy Franklin of running?

"She can compete against the clock, while benefitting[sic] from being a part of a team"

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Cain did that while competing for her high school and learned nothing about racing.

Did Bannister compete against the clock when running his sub 4? Yes, but he had two rabbits because he needed them.

Zero. It isn't like having Mary Cain come to your school will be profitable. Not like getting a top-5 basketball prospect that may lead you to the NCAA Championship.

Mary decided she did not want to be on a team when she left her HS program. Now compare it to running for a college team. Same thing. She had a good coach at Bronxville with decent hs runners. She can have a good coach in college with decent college runners, but her actions already prove that "the team" thing wasn't for her. Why not do what Ajee Wilson is doing? It is working for her and Mary seems to be worth more than Ajee at this time. Take the money and go to school part time. You may never have this chance again. And for those of you who say she will miss out on the college experience, not everyone's experiences in life have to be a cookie cutter approach. Whatever she is doing now works for her. Why change it?

stupidned wrote:

Zero. It isn't like having Mary Cain come to your school will be profitable. Not like getting a top-5 basketball prospect that may lead you to the NCAA Championship.

It can change a program though. Rupp and the Martin Smith pushout started the chain of events that brought Oregon back into the distance spotlight and both teams improved. Obviously it's a different situation with a lot of history, but Cain would attract talent around her incoming that probably wouldn't come necessarily. And having Nike interested in your program can't hurt either.

Answer: Not as many as Southwest No-Name State College will commit to get the 104th best high school quarterback in the country.

Winter is coming wrote:

Lets start with anybody entertaining the idea of Salazar still coaching her. NCAA rules do not allow any coaching by an outside coach in season. So if he wan'ts to coach her he will have to get a job at that school or become a volunteer for that school.

Whats up with idiotic NCAA rules like this?

This is all true in theory, but consider that Salazar coached Rupp throughout Rupp's time at UO. He was indeed doing different workouts from the rest of the team, and was in Portland about 50% of the time. I worked with a good friend of someone who was on the distance coaching staff at Oregon, who told me this.

Winter is coming wrote:

Ummmm wrote:

At the college level they have more strict rules about who is coaching who. I know they have the whole deal worked out while in high school. But NCAA is very strict about who can coach athletes while they are competing at the D1 level.

But NCAA coaches have egos. And if Salazar was just coaching one athlete it would look weird for Mary to be doing completely different workouts than all her teammates. One might say well they could all do Salazar's workouts, but then that would deem that schools distance coach pointless and although Salazar may be a superior coach, speaking from a college coaches perspective, there is no way in hell I would sit back and let someone else coach all of my kids.

I don't know where to start with this post, it reflects so many different misunderstandings of college recruiting and Cain's situation.

For starters, since it is past July 1st, Cain already has multiple offers from elite schools such as Princeton or Stanford to come for an official visit this Fall.

Many of these offers will be from Ivy League schools which are bound by mutual agreement to NOT offer a dime to athletic recruits. So there is no $200 - 250,000.00 scholarship on tap from any of the ivies, nor is there for any other recruited ivy athlete.

Will Cain run in the NCAA? Lots of conjecture on this topic, but, bottom line, given where she is coming from, she will opt to run NCAA and, in so doing, focus on her prodigious academic potential as well as running. She, nor her parents, are dopy enough to think that Cain has been raised to be a distance runner. There is far more in store for her and it is tied to a top flight education.

Where does that leave her as far as college choice? Two schools, Princeton and Stanford, both top flight academic and track and field programs. There are advantages to both. Princeton, as the number one academic college in the country, not to mention a perennial Ivy League T&F champ, all other things equal, is the natural choice. It is also close to home, which increases its attraction to the parents.

Stanford, though, can offer a full athletic scholarship. That is a $200,000.00 advantage. While Cain's father is a doctor, so isn't hurting financially, doctor or not, a $200,000.00 handshake makes for an awfully attractive handshake.

Hard to say how this will shake out. The prestige of a Princeton versus the golden handshake of a Stanford. My guess is they will go for the Princeton prestige, but it is around a 51 - 49% ratio in favor of Princeton. Very, very close.

As far as outside coaching, this happens all the time as far as I can tell. Harvard's coach allowed mid-distiance runner Cotton to continue to work with his U.K.-based coach following his recruitment by Harvard. So the assistance of Salazar in Cain's training program while at Princeton or Stanford should be a non-starter.

As far as what Nike would pay her, i.e., more than $250,000.00 per year, please. Do you have any conception of how poorly paid "professional" runners are? It is embarrassing. Most of them don't have two nickels to rub together. They work part-time as baristas at Starbucks to make ends meet.

There are probably a few (count them on one hand) who make over $250,000.00, but these are truly world class performers (minimum Olympic medalists) AND they have the looks and / or personality to resonate with the public. Cain is nowhere near that level.

Also, keep in mind, Cain is one injury away from the end of her running career.

For this reason, she will run NCAA and it will either be at Princeton or Stanford, likely Princeton, but Stanford could knock Princeton out of the box with scholarship money.

Thoughts?

Princeton, Stanford are obvious frontrunners -- Stanford if Cain has stayed in touch with her old buddy, Cuffe, and Cuffe can convince her.

I think it will be close to home. Candidate? Columbia. Close to home also means The Armory, where Cain is a big favorite and where she loves to run.

Outliers: Harvard, MIT, Dartmouth.

Would all of the above be willing to involve Salazar in Cain's training and allow his input in meet selection for Cain? My guess is yes. I think it can be an easygoing relationship with happy campers and little or no friction. Backroom negotiations will have adults in attendance, not children.

less than obvious wrote:

Princeton, Stanford are obvious frontrunners -- Stanford if Cain has stayed in touch with her old buddy, Cuffe, and Cuffe can convince her.

I think it will be close to home. Candidate? Columbia. Close to home also means The Armory, where Cain is a big favorite and where she loves to run.

Outliers: Harvard, MIT, Dartmouth.

Would all of the above be willing to involve Salazar in Cain's training and allow his input in meet selection for Cain? My guess is yes. I think it can be an easygoing relationship with happy campers and little or no friction. Backroom negotiations will have adults in attendance, not children.

Columbia? LOL. Not a chance. First of all, it has the wrong campus "culture." Bomb-making, crass uber-liberals from NYC and Westchester suburban gentry don't exactly mix. And, where do the students have to be bussed to enable them to practice every day? Another state? Same applies to Harvard with its corrosive politically correct ethos and lack of adequate training facilities, unless you want to be bussed up to Walden Pond or some other hard to reach off-campus backwater.

MIT??? LOL. Although a good school, did someone forget to tell you it competes in Division IIII?

Dartmouth: This school has a lot going or it, but it is a step-child to the real ivy academic / athletic powerhouse with the right conservative culture, Princeton, not to mention it is almost impossible to get to Dartmouth given its remote location and lack of transportation options.

Would coach d accept a deal like this?

[quote]eman wrote:

The Mary Cain of swimming is actually Missy Franklin who won four gold medals and a bronze at the London Olympics and pocketed $450,000.00 from US swimming and then went back to her high school for her senior year and swam at this years state championships. Missy will further her education at UC Berkley all the while keeping her college eligibility.

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Missy Franklin (and her parents) don't listen to people who tell her there is not enough competition on the high school level for her. She is the poster child of how track phenoms should behave.

I grew up in Rhode Island playing sports with a kid named Ryan Westmoreland. He was dominant in baseball, basketball, football, and soccer. When he was a senior in high school (2008) the Red Sox offered him two million to skip college, while Vanderbilt offered him a full ride. He signed with the Sox but was smart enough to negotiate for a clause in his contract saying that if he ever wanted to go to Vanderbilt, the Sox would foot the bill.

About a year into his contract Ryan seemed to be headed toward an impressive career, but he suddenly discovered that he had a cavernous malformation in his brain. Three surgeries later, he was left with limited coordination and baseball looked like a long shot. The Red Sox covered hundreds of thousands in medical bills and are currently paying his tuition at Vanderbilt as he pursues a degree in physical therapy.

Even if the NCAA is not appealing to Mary Cain, I suggest that she at least try to negotiate for strong medical and university funding clauses in her first contract, because an education from a great school is probably a better indicator of long term success than a 1:59 800.

I also suggest reading a bit about Ryan because he is an incredibly tough kid that is still trying to make it back to the MLB:

http://espn.go.com/boston/mlb/story/_/id/9024035/ryan-westmoreland-former-boston-red-sox-prospect-retires-age-22