Sub 1:50 800m Training

flbuurr wrote:

Im sorry. Im calling bs on Pmoax. I think he is probably guessing at what he thinks he needs to run that fast.

Ive run sub 1:50 and I was fairly speed based at the time and I think I could possibly run 35.5's.

Have to defend Pmoax. I saw a guy who was a 45 second 400 guy moving up to 800m. I timed him myself and watched him run 6*300m in 36 with the last one in 35. 3*300m in 34 is a bit fast, but a 44-45 second guy should be able to do this. You are right as well that you dont have to be this fast to run sub 150.

The runner I referenced above ran 1:46.7 that season which was his all time best. He never got faster.

Borza obviously has superior speed, but does a decent amount of strength work. When was the last time there was a pure speed guy win a championship 800m? I know there was one but cant think of anyone since Juantarena. Seems like the milers dominate (or those 800m guys who can compete internationally in the mile/1500).

We have so much 400m talent in this country, and yet we are starting to get thin at the event on the international level. Trying to imagine where we find the next next great American 800m runner other than Symmonds, or at least someone to give him a run. Johnny Gray had to fight off Mark Everett and Rich Kenah. Jose Parilla made two Olympic teams and ran 1:43 and unless you are track fan you've never heard of him because we were so stacked in the race during the 90s.

Wheating is a decent bet.

what's this borzakowskiy article you're referring to? I'd be interested to read it but it isn't coming up on a quick google. Thanks!

flbuurr wrote:

Im sorry. Im calling bs on Pmoax. I think he is probably guessing at what he thinks he needs to run that fast.

I got the impression that he was laying out those times as guidlelines for what he thought he needed for sub-1:50, not that he was saying that he had already run those times.

And I agree, they seem superfluous for the speed one would need for sub-1:50.

The Borza article was posted on letsrun last year or the year before. It is a very specific interview with his coach from when Borza was only 21-22. It is interesting that he has been a bit quiet the last few years, and then erupted last year again.The article was subtitled 4x25 sec, referring to the coaches belief that Borza could run 1:40.

You have confirmed that you have great speed-in fact you are fast enough that you could theoretically run 1:45 and certainly 1:48. It is always interesting when a good talent posts looking for advice. Are you disagreeing with a coach or possibly in between school and club at this time?

In any event, you are a poster boy for this entire thread. There were lots of good and specific ideas advanced here, many of which from Old Sub 4 which were clearly from the horse's mouth.Look up the Borza article as well.

So read it all, see what you feel the most comfortable with, and try some things. To repeat myself from a previous post, I think you will accomplish great things if you run 1200m one week and 3x1000 the next week, and then alternate for 8-10 weeks. You could start at whatever feels comfortable (3:15 and 2:40?) but you must get down to no slower than 3:05 and 2:32 or else it will be proof that you don't have enough strength.

Good luck. Maybe you can be the next big talent that Old Sub 4 is looking for!

PMoax actually posted his training about 2 months ago and 17 pages back...

"Monday:1. 6X80m@95% with 6-8 minute recovery,

2. plyos weights

Tuesday: 1. 12X400m Hills @80 with 2 minute jog recovery

2. 3 Mile Run

Wednesday: 6-8 Mile Run

Thursday: 1. Hurdle Technique, 10X200m @32 over 400mih with 3 minute recovery

2. 3 Mile Run

Friday: 1. 3X5X20m Sled, Plyos, Weights

2. 10X100m @15s with 60s recovery

Saturday: 1. 6X800m @2:25 with 2 minute recovery

2. 4-5 Mile Run

Sunday: 6-8 Mile Run"

Get that long run up to 12 miles and those 800s closer to 2:15 and you'll be flying come June-August.

I should mention one thing which will probably explain why I think my speed needs to be that fast to run just sub 1:50. I am not going to run 1:48 this year and deff not 1:45 lol! I have awful endurance by distance runner definition. I can't break mid 18:30's on a 5k even when I was doing 50-60 miles for several weeks in a row.

My theory is that as I get better at the 800m the race gets shorter playing more to the favor of my energy systems.

My training has changed a little since that last post, here is what last week looked like:

M: 1X (200m+100m),(200m+150m),(200m+150m),(200m) Hills with 1 Minute between reps and 5 between sets / Weights and Plyos

T:10X200m over 2 hurdles in 31s with 2 minute recovery

W:4X20m from 3pt/ Plyos and Weights

Th:10X100m @15s with 45s recovery, 5 Minutes, 5X100m@15s with 45s recovery,3 Minutes, 5X100m@15s with 45s recovery

F:5X50m Hills with 2:15 recovery/ Plyos and Weights

Sa:3X3X300m @48s with 2 minutes between reps and 5 between sets

Su:Off

Those times are probably a bit excessive for most 800m runners, I was just posting my situation as an example.

So you've cut out ALL of your distance runs? It's December, that looks like something to get your legs fresh/sharp in July/August...

lol, so you didn't even run over a lap of the track without stopping this past week? Just 100s,150s,200s,300s nothing else? I mean, maybe you can race well off of that, I don't know enough about you to say you can't...but can you honestly say that you are meeting your potential over 800m with that schedule?

Here is where the distance runners dogma blurs everything. Just because something is short does not mean that it is for "sharpening" or speed work. No I don't do anything over one lap because most work is not on the track, it is on grass or on hills lol. Try any of my tempo workouts (tuesday, thursday, saturday) and you will see that the aerobic system is being taxed more than anything else.

Secondary off topic thought:

For anyone that has smacked the wall in an 800m or maybe even a 1500m, what pace do you revert to?..... For me and those I have asked it has been the pace that they do mileage at. Spend that time developing the aerobic system to handle faster paces and when you lactate and creatine-phosphate systems are exhausted in a race you won't slow down too much.

I'll agree that the 10+5+5X100m and the 3X3X300s are aerobic, and that they are probably a better way then 5 miles easy but the body must react negatively in some way when running the 800m if you have not ran that far in practice.

And besides, you won't "smack the wall" as bad if you are trained well enough. Doing nothing over a lap is asking for it. Just my take on it.

Pmoax; Are you willing to accept advice and experiment or not?

Old Sub 4 said the single biggest difference to him post college was the tempo runs. My suggestion is the 1000s and 1200s. Sorry to say, but 18:30 for 5k is pathetic for a quality athlete. As a general goal, you should at least aim at 16:40 (3:20 per k. Therefore, try 4-5x1k@3:20 with 2-3 min rest.)A.C posted a schedule of current world class 800 runners that showed a progression of 600s from 1:30 all the way down to race pace. These 3 examples are distinctly different from your program. I suggest you try some of them. The season is just starting, you can easily do six weeks of these types of workouts and it will only be Feb.

Good luck.

I am very willing to experiment. In fact everything I try is an experiment.

The 1000's and 1200's sound good, but I do not think I will introduce them untill SPP starts or till the end of spp. I will probably start with 800s and build to 1200's. Additionally I will probably add in a short tempo run as well.

smacking the wall normally comes from going out too hard, it has nothing to do with training.

Additionally Bud Winters who coach many of the "Speed City" athletes from the olympics in Mexico and some of them never did more than 250m in training and ran very fast in the 400m

Doing ONLY short repeats, no matter how fast and how short the recovery, is asking for the bear to jump on your back in the last 200m. Take Jeremy Wariner for example. For Wariner a tempo session is 200s in 25. Even he does some 600s and 1000s though. For him 50s/lap is not a hard pace, but he can't handle 2 laps. He doesn't have the aerobic capacity or aerobic power.

Like someone said about Wariner running the 800m "The first lap in 50 seconds would feel effortless, and the 600m in 1:15-1:16 would feel easy. Then something very strange would happen to his legs and the next 200m would be the slowest and most painful of his life".

The same will happen to you, that is a 200/400 plan, not a 400/800 plan. Another Canuck is right, tempos will help you immensely, they will help you far more then that second day of 100s.

The 800m requires the leg speed of a 400m runner and the heart and lungs of a distance runner:you already have the former down, why do you spend all of your time working on it? If you are to improve, you must work on the endurance while MAINTAINING the speed.

Pmoax wrote:

smacking the wall normally comes from going out too hard, it has nothing to do with training.

Additionally Bud Winters who coach many of the "Speed City" athletes from the olympics in Mexico and some of them never did more than 250m in training and ran very fast in the 400m

I completely disagree. Going out too hard is a reason for hitting the wall but to say that it has nothing to do with training is rediculous. So you could run the same time in the 800m off of no training at all?

And comparing the 800m to the 400m isn't fair, they are completely different. You can run a decent 400 off of no aerobic work, but not an 800. Read this entire thread, the aerobic system is essential for the 800m.

Good luck though, if you do the necessary aerobic work you could probably be national class.

Where you run shouldn't effect how long you run. I think your theory on what pace you revert to has flaws. When you are running those 100s and 300s there is definitely an aerobic stress during the recovery. But the reason you can run them fast is because the CP and lacate system are generating a lot of the energy. By running faster, you are limiting the total amount of time you can train the aerobic system. Doing some thing like 5x1000 at 3k-5k pace would give you a stronger aerobic boost since you should be able to spend 10+ mins at a high oxygen consumption versus 5 or 6 mins. Your workouts have the advantage of helping with your coordination at race paces.400 and the 800m are totally different beasts when you look at them from an energy system point of view.

Pmoax wrote:

Here is where the distance runners dogma blurs everything. Just because something is short does not mean that it is for "sharpening" or speed work. No I don't do anything over one lap because most work is not on the track, it is on grass or on hills lol. Try any of my tempo workouts (tuesday, thursday, saturday) and you will see that the aerobic system is being taxed more than anything else.

Secondary off topic thought:

For anyone that has smacked the wall in an 800m or maybe even a 1500m, what pace do you revert to?..... For me and those I have asked it has been the pace that they do mileage at. Spend that time developing the aerobic system to handle faster paces and when you lactate and creatine-phosphate systems are exhausted in a race you won't slow down too much.

Random thoughts from a 800m training point of view (this looks like a great training fora 400m guy). W 4x20m? Spending time on starting doesn't seem like a good use of time. I hope that plyo session is a real killer or this is a waste of a dayTh - Unless your a firm believer in the raising and lowering being the main training effect (I personally believe the muscles limit you more than the heart after a couple of years of training), the 5x100 seems a bit weak. I am thinking you really wanted to do 2 sets but that was getting too hard. By breaking up into 3 sets, most of the aerobic stress is removed since for the first 2 or 3 of every set you can get by on your CP stores and a bit of lacate.

Pmoax wrote:

My training has changed a little since that last post, here is what last week looked like:

M: 1X (200m+100m),(200m+150m),(200m+150m),(200m) Hills with 1 Minute between reps and 5 between sets / Weights and Plyos

T:10X200m over 2 hurdles in 31s with 2 minute recovery

W:4X20m from 3pt/ Plyos and Weights

Th:10X100m @15s with 45s recovery, 5 Minutes, 5X100m@15s with 45s recovery,3 Minutes, 5X100m@15s with 45s recovery

F:5X50m Hills with 2:15 recovery/ Plyos and Weights

Sa:3X3X300m @48s with 2 minutes between reps and 5 between sets

Su:Off