Doubling

The difference is that the guys you have mentioned below have studied the hell out of the sport, gotten masters degrees in sports related studies, and accumulated experience coaching athletes with the physical capabilities to achieve great things.Someone like Yeah shouldn't be dishing out advice based on his own experience, as he has very little experience (he is comparing his junior year to his senior year?). He should shut up and listen to runners who have a lot of experience and great advisers (like Dr. Martin, for example, that guy is a genius).

makes a point wrote:

You do make a great point here about not necessarily being fast but can still give advice! I agree because maybe that person is running their potential with their body! A good example is I know I have read and heard around here that wetmore sucked in college at running. But yet he still coaches several all americans a year and has had several national champions. I dont beleive John MacDonald(sp?) ran as a pro. Joe Vigil? Vin Lanana?

this question is either for Mr. Malmo or Mr. Spivey:

When I transistion to the peaking phase, which for me will be about six weeks before state, should I slowly phase out morning runs before races all together? Or should i just lower the mileage/intensity? I noticed in Mr. Spivey's Barcelona training log that he did not have morning runs before any of his heats for the Olympic games. Is a light morning run (20-30min) practical the day of an important race mid-season/post? in general?

The problem here is you have no idea who I am. I have been coached by great coaches at all levels. how experience constitutes experience? Does number of years in the sport matter? I was coached by the most successful coach in my region with over 30 years of experience. my college has earned coach of the many times over in our conference for his ability improve athletes. I have trained and listened to McMullen. I got to sit in on discussions by Rono, the 1500m champ in the 1988 Olympics and Joe Vigil. I have served as an assistant coach in hs and helped my own brother go from 11:30 to 11:00 in the 3200m in weeks. I have served a member of training camps and personally helped people develop training plans in hs. I'm no Dr. Martin but your assessment of me is based off of no information whatsoever. Master's degrees? so what? It isn't what you learn in the classroom it's what you implement in the real world and I was trained by the best at every level. I'll be a Joe Vigil but if you think only those people are capable of giving sound advice you are misguided. Who knows? Maybe a high school could teach even Joe Vigil a thing or two. Never simply discredit someone because you haven't heard of them.

JS didn't phase out his morning runs before races, his races were just in the morning. Notice how one says the race was a 11:15am. He said in an earlier post that the final was at 10am. He did afternoon runs after those. I'd say that if you have a morning race, you shouldn't squeeze in a 20min run at 4am. If your race is at 6pm, you should do a morning run. If that's what you're used to.If your body is used to running twice a day, you shouldn't screw with that. Just look at the rest of his days in there, he cut his morning runs down to 20 minutes. I don't think he reduced intensity, in face I would guess he increased intensity, but that is a question for him to answer...

C. Barton wrote:

this question is either for Mr. Malmo or Mr. Spivey:

When I transistion to the peaking phase, which for me will be about six weeks before state, should I slowly phase out morning runs before races all together? Or should i just lower the mileage/intensity? I noticed in Mr. Spivey's Barcelona training log that he did not have morning runs before any of his heats for the Olympic games. Is a light morning run (20-30min) practical the day of an important race mid-season/post? in general?

since david martin says start speedwork only 4 weeks away from your peak, what does david martin define as speed work?

Wouldn't you do a 20 min. warmup an hour before a race anyway?

Gentlemen ...

Don't look over your shoulders, as the Three Stooges did when asked that question.

1. Everyone is different

2. One training program is not right for everyone

3. You don't have to be fast to be a great coach

4. You don't have to be slow to be a great coach

5. Find out what works for you

A. For morning runs - I believe you should continue these through the racing season, as pointed out w/ the Barcleona training. You can cut back from 4 to 3 miles, and then to 2 miles as you can see. It is to loosen up for the afternoon workout/race that is important. If it was 95 degrees in London, I am sure I would have only run for 15 minutes, and with no shirt on. In Atlanta, I warmed up with a shirt around my neck only, and shorts. When I finished the wup, I put my long sleeve shirt on as well as pants.

B. Starting out with 4 days a week for 3 miles, may be a bit agressive. How about 3 days a week, 2 miles to 2.5 miles. Try that for 2 weeks, and then bump to 3 miles. If that goes well, add a day, and then try to get up to 5 days a week.

C. NOTE - important safety point (like in Ghostbusters): According to Dr. Dave's tests, when you wake up in the AM, your stored calories are at 0. I will link you to one of my tests next week. Yes, if you "carbo load" you do store up some calories, but he said it is very difficult to do this. So... if he is telling the truth, you start off a 0. We always run first, and not eat first, to avoid all kinds of cramps, etc. :) But we are at 0. He showed me that if I ran more than 30 m's, I needed to eat something before I ran to have the body go after this food and attempt to break it down for energy, rather than breaking down muscle. "I will have to find a bathroom," was my reply. "They take a bagel, and chew 3 bits 60 times each," he said. You don't know me well enough, but I timed myself when I mowed our yard - so, counted and chewed. No cramps. It helped me mentally, thinking that I was helping my body, not letting it get into a negative state while running, and keeping the muscle. When going for a 90 m run, this was crucial.

D. Wendy Sly said to me that Dr. David Martin's true name was "Walking Brain." I thought he did a great job of collecting the data, and then laying out for me to choose, based upon those he had tested before, what to do to maximize performance. When I was tested each year, this data was invaluable in my training from 1991-1997 to fine tune what I needed to do to peak at the right time.

E. Speed work - I would define this as intervals faster than race pace. I may run 3x3x400 (200)[400] one of my favorite workouts, with sets of ffg,fgf, gff {f=fresh,g=good, note NO H, hard intervals}. I would run 63 for the f and 60 for the g, thus using the 8" between my chin and hair during the workout, not letting it just shut off. If I could run this, I knew I could run under 4 for the mile. Later in the season I would run 59/60 for the f,and 56/57 for the g.... I must state, the the good intevals I had to work at, but could have run 53/54 if I really applied myself: Thus, they were 'within myself intervals.' Speed is when you run faster, and increase the rest (run a 400, take a 400 rest).

F. State on June 1, Speed can start April 1 in bits and pieces. April 15 more, and May 1 on, light a fire.

js

Great post! Thanks!

great post Jim,

how would you classify long intervals (1k-1mile) at 3k-10k pace, and if your goal race is June 1 when should you start doing long intervals and when should you stop doing them

Jim Spivey? That is f-ing awesome. It is amazing when this website really lives up to what it should be. On behalf of everyone remotely serious, thanks a lot.

This is troublesome. I went through a period of time where I woke up and ran an hour and a half every day (with more in the afternoon). (I usually ate a decent amount a couple hours before bed the day before--not sure if that makes difference.) I felt like I was getting stronger, but was I actually doing more harm than good (breaking down muscle)? I did get injured, but I always assumed it was because I built up too fast.

Is it advisable to NEVER run more than a half hour (or so) before eating anything for the day?

Thanks for posting, JS.

Horace Slugworth wrote:

You idiot. Okay... it was actually a post before spivey. My mistake. here is what Spivey said earlier:

If you want to add morning runs, try 2-3 days a week. Either on the recovery days (non-hard workout days) or the morning of the hard workout days. Run 15-20 m's (minutes) and see how it feels."

Where did Spivey say to only run 2-3 days a week? He didn't. He said that if you "wanted to add morning runs, try 2-3 days a week." That's a start. Is that the same as "only 2-3 times a week"? No it's not. No chocolate for you.

Give it up. You haven't even made any points of your own. I gave my advice. Spivey gave his. You have given nothing. Come up with an original thought and then critique me. You are reaching for criticism right now and it is obvious.

Mr 15:12, do you stare at your monitor while constantly refreshing this thread or something?

How amusing... You still think that your pr is the end all. You are a true dumbass. My high school coach never broke 18:00 but has more to in terms of knowledge then you will ever offer. He has 30 years of coaching experience. You are just suck at posting. You BTW, you refreshed the thread you low life. Face it... you have no real ideas. I can explain circles around you. Contribute something useful for a change. You would not last one minute in a discussion with either my hs coach or my college coach. Bring it. Give us your theory you coward. Just pack it in. You are one of the people that makes this board laughable. Admit you are a bitch... that is why you never provide any real advice... you suck at running.

Oompa... you are a real bitch. You piggy back off of legends and never give your own take. Yeah has outclassed you in every way. Just quite. You are a bad poster. You have never given any reasons behind your critiques. You are a loser. BTW, "yeah" had been silent most of the day until you bated him. face it... you are a small fish in a big pond and you are also incredibly ignorant. Just stop posting.

Dude... you suck. Pretty bad. The fact that you try to use someone else's time against them proves you have no real point. BTW, what are your bests... you like to criticize times but never give your own. I only did 2-3 doubles a week and ran 14:11 and 29:31. Face it... you are just a loud mouth that hasn't given any real insight to the conversation. Go home and stop posting you idiot.

Oompa... stop being a punk. Everyone can figure out you aren't a good runner. Give a real point for once. I bet it won't happen...

I wrote this last night, but my server went down and so did all the notes.

Long intervals with short rest early in the season, and shorter intervals with longer rest at the end.

YOu can run short intervals, and make them long. Compare these workouts:

4xmile (400)

2 sets of 3x1200 (400)[600]

6x800 (300)

3 sets of 800 (300)1000 [400]

then:

4 sets of 5x200 (100)[400]

If you ran the 200\\\\\\\'s in :37, think about it - you are running 5 miles of interals. Compare that workout to the 4xmile with a 400 jog - the same distance - but which one is a much harder workout? I think the 200\\\\\\\'s. Because you are picking up the pace, and then slowing down, 40 times.

For peaking on June 1 - you have roughly 90 days until the race. Let\\\\\\\'s count back wards:

12 Long intervals workouts as listed above

races can be used as speed workouts

11 Think about a tempo run as well - look at Jack Daniels

charts as to what pace to run

10 2 by effort workouts - for example, on week 12, 10, 8

can run 2x2 miles, or 2x1.5 or 2x2.5 (5 minute jog)

Remember - your lactic acid peaks at 5 m\\\\\\\'s post

interal. So run your 2 miles at a good pace, jog 5 m\\\\\\\'s

and then again. Great way to build strength.

Dr. Dave would have his marathoners work up to 2x4 or

2x5 miles (5) at race pace. S.Spence ran this before

Tokyo in 1991 in Japan, and had to stop as he was

sweating too much.

9

8 Start of speed intermixed with long intervals

7 example of trainig: 2x800 f (300)[400]

3x400 gfg (200)[400]

2x800 f (300)

note that you are running w/in yourself on the 8\\\\\\\'s

and up tempo on the 4\\\\\\\'s to create lactic acid

6 Can do 3 sets of 3x400 (200)[400[

1st set ffg 2nd set fgf 3rd set gff

5

4 Speed workouts. 4-5 x200 f (100)[400] to get warm

3-4 x 250 at various paces to work a bit (150)[400]

2x500 or 1x500, 1x400 (300) at race pace or

slighlty faster

then come back and run 4x150 or 4x200 slow, to teach

the body to run while tired. Run s-l-o-w on these.

3

2 - Last 2 weeks of training - sharpening

reduce the work load. 1/2 mile warm-downs after w/outs

1 - Race week. 2 light workouts

Monday\\\\\\\'s workout could be

3x200 f (100)[400]

1x400 f first 200, g last 200 (400)

1x400 g first 200, f last 200 (400)

2-3 x 200 f (100)

When you have high school duel meets during the week, it toasts your training.

js