Vick not guilty of any crime

I live in Denver (well, Thornton because the geniuses in Denver made the breed illegal). I know the story. It was in Aurora...I am friends with an officer who heard the call (no he did not respond to it). And I GUARANTEE you that dog was not a well-behaved dog. No I dont have proof, but you don't either. Most people are ignorant when it comes to dog behavior -not stupid or dumb, but ingorant, meaning uninformed or untrained. Most people think that just because a dog isn't biting or barking it isn't showing any aggression. Dogs mostly show aggression through body language LONG before a bite occurs (just watch some Dog Wisperer on National Geographic Channel sometime for examples of what I'm talking about).

I do not live in a fantasy world. I have plenty of experience in living with and handling these dogs. They are MADE DANGEROUS! Whether that comes through mis-treatment of the animals or no guidance as to what constitutes proper behavior, the dog's behavior is a reflection of the owner and owner's leadership - or lack thereof. A dog owner (any breed) has to be a PACK LEADER - and the vast majority of owners are NOT. How many dogs do you see leading/pulling their owners on walks. Who's walking who? The dog should FOLLOW, not lead. YOU lead. And you lead at ALL TIMES, including at home, where you have to be conscious of all behavior and correct it immediately if it is not proper. Most people are not willing to do this with any breed, especially the little ones. Which is why so many little dogs bark so much - "oh how cute"...no it's not cute, it is AGGRESSION that the owner is not curtailing.

I have met dogs and owners at the park near my house (on Irma st if you want to come by sometime and see my dog for yourself) who just cannot believe how good my dog is. I have also TAUGHT owners how to control their unruly dogs. They have no clue that a dog is showing aggressive tendencies or behavior because it's not verbal. I have gotten control of others' dogs when they couldn't. I know these dogs. They are only as dangerous as the owners make them/let them be. It is as simple as that.

lill wrote:

while i don't doubt that you have rehabilatated pit bulls, they do have a track record of attacking humans. in fact, they are outlawed in toronto and most of ontario b/c of it. i think that once a dog attacks a human (any breed) they should be put down.

They have a track record in the last 10-15 years, because they are the preferred dog of all the asshole thug gangbangers out there for mistreatment and fighting. Before that, Rottweilers were the dog du jour for idiots. They were made illegal in many places during the 80s. Before that, it was Dobermans. Before that it was German Shepherds. During the 1950's the most common fatal dog attack in the US was by Great Danes. GREAT DANES!!!!! Known as one of the most gentle breeds there are. But because they are big and powerful, they were used as protection dogs by many. So were/are Dobermans, so were/are Rotts, and so were/are German Shepherds. The bad track record of pit bulls and related breeds comes FROM THE OWNERS who use them for illegal/viscious activities.

My whole point here is that the breed should not be made to suffer (no breed should) for the illegal actions of the CRIMINALS who perpetrate the behavior. Those people should be made to suffer, not the dogs. The dogs used for fighting have suffered enough.

Jesus Christ dude, I want my kids to be able to run around in the back yard without fear of some dog ripping them apart. I don't want to have to be a god damned dog whisperer to walk down my street. What about lions, tigers and grizzly bears as pets? Ask Roy Horn about accidents.

Again, I should not have to be a FREAKING DOG EXPERT because of your dogs. A majority of American high schoolers cannot locate the United States of America on an unmarked globe - these high schoolers go on to be adults who can't find their ass with both hands - they have no business owning a dog like this - so yes, they are only as dangerous as the owners make or let them be - which is very F'ing dangerous because most Americans are complete idiots when it comes to raising children, much less a dog that was bred for aggression and fighting.

Your fantasy world is one of "theory" where any dog can be X if trained properly. The REALITY is that the overwhelming majority of people no absolutely nothing about training dogs - and the overwhelming majority of dirtbags who are attracted to these breeds - and you know exactly who I am talking about have even less knowledge about training. Additionally, these people ENCOURAGE aggression toward everything and everyone except themselves.

How about a hyena for a pet?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v662/cerberus314/nigeria4.jpg

I am sure that they could be trained not to eat they neighbor's kids - maybe.

You have basically backed up everything I have said. Your kids do not have to be afraid of MY dog (a pit bull) because MY dog will never attack. I am not asking YOU to be a dog expert because of my dog. But if you do own a large dog (any large breed), and you have small kids, you damn well better become a dog expert really fast.

And I agree with you that most people are idiots when it comes to dogs. I said that myself. I think that people should have to be licensed to own a dog...that's right, pass a test and everything. Because ANY DOG CAN ATTACK. My pit bull was attacked in NC at the dog park by a yellow lab. She would only stand next to her owner (possessive behavior) and when any dog got nearby, she bared her teeth. Mine got a little close, and she bit right through his upper lip. This was not a breed problem here...it was an owner problem. That owner never knew how to properly raise his dog, and it showed all too clearly to everyone else in the park. He was asked to leave by a woman there.

You are also correct that dirtbags are attracted to this breed because they are very powerful indeed. I do not deny that, that's one reason I like my dog so much. Denver and Aurora, CO (among other cities) have banned these breeds. But again, it is not the breeds that are the problem...it is the gangs. I work in Aurora, and drive through it every day. I see assholes walking their pits down the street, even though animal control told me i could not live in the city limits. That breed ban does not make these idiots obey - all it does is punish responsible dog owners like myself. The criminals will still do what they can. If we made guns illegal, criminals would still get them, too.

The crackdown needs to be on the owners and perpetrators of the illegal activity - not the dogs themselves. I am so tired of the DOGS being made out to be the criminals here...they are not the criminals. Yes if a dog attacks a child, it should be put down, no question. But the OWNER of that dog should be made to pay, too.

PETA do you have a SOUL?????

Tony wrote:

...

ttc you are just wrong wrong wrong about the breed. Breeds do have strong tendencies, but my brother was bitten by a german shepherd. ...

A lot of people like to insist that breeding has nothing to do with temperment, but they are flat out wrong. It is a largley inherited trait, with humans as well as animals. Read up on neuro-physiology. For example, Stephen Pinker "The Blank Slate" or "How the Mind Works".

Why / how do you think specific breeds were created for behaviors such as herding, pointing, etc? These are inherited mental traits. PBS (NOVA?) had a great series on the evolution of dogs. Basically, dogs evolved from wolves due to selection via minimum flight distance. The wolves that had less fear of humans branched into dogs over (a relativly) short time.

Tony wrote:

...ANY DOG CAN ATTACK. My pit bull was attacked in NC at the dog park by a yellow lab. ....

This is true. However it is also true that psychological tendencies / traits can be inherited.

I think it is reasonable to conclude that when certain breeds of dogs are specifically bred for aggressive characteristics, that we might expect there to be a larger percentage of aggressive dogs within that breed.

Perhaps there are studies where we can look at actual data rather than guessing. You insist that there is nothing to worry about, but I think maybe otherwise. Of the pit bulls, Rotwielers , Dobermans I have been acquainted with, MOST (not all) seemed rather aggressive (compared with the labs, shorthairs, etc I am familar with).

I have also seen agressive labs but much less often. I own 2, and have have encountered many many labs.

Baldy, I appreciate your comments. And yes, I know that behavioral traits are largely inherited. I never said they weren't. I am a PhD in physiology; I understand inhertied behavioral characteristics. But just because your dad, grandad, and gret grandad were alcholics doesn't mean you have to be.

And the inhrited nature of behavior is exactly why it is so important for an aspiring dog owner to study the breed traits from reputable sources before owning a dog - any breed - and not just get a Boxer "because boxers are cute". Lots of Jack Russel owners go crazy when they realize that their "cute little dog" is really a VERY energetic mighty-might who likes to dig and chew, and can be very very stubborn. Yes, the bully breeds were bred to never back down (gameness, tenacity or whatever psychological term you'd like to use) and they were also bred to be very powerful for their size (physical attributes). Put those together with an owner who has no idea how to properly handle this dog, it there is the very real capability for severe damage. I will never deny this even about my own dog. Believe me, I understand the power of this dog. But then I am a properly educated owner who has the diligence and knowledge to handle my dog very very well. I did have to work to get him to behave...but the final point is he DOES BEHAVE. As do the dogs that I fostered and worked with (some of which decidedly did NOT behave before i got them).

But the bully breeds (almost all of which originate in England or from immigrants who brought them over here to the US) were bred for animal aggression and LOYALTY to humans. Not aggression toward, or fear of, humans...loyalty. If properly raised, they are some of the most loyal and obedient dogs around from what I have seen..even at the local dog park. The pit bulls in the dog park by my house are by far some of the better behaved dogs - maybe because the owners there understand that they MUST be. The human-aggressive bully dogs are made that way BY HUMANS.

Anyway, I appreciate your ability to approach the subject rationally, and not just say they should be wiped ut. Even if you dont necessarily agree with me. Thank you.

Yep Africa is where the Staff, American Staff, Bull Pit, Pit and even others like the Presa (CanaryDog)were bred. Yep thats the ticket...not Spain, England or Europe. Yep the Africans, particularly the Zulu can be seen in old photos a hundred years ago breeding, for hundreds of years, these dogs. BUT WHAT KILLS ME WITH YOU IDIOTS IS...who gives a crap about these fighting dogs...I say shoot them all to stop the tens of thousands of attacks each year world wide on children and animals....the big thing is how you train these dogs. One pit needs to kill hundreds of stolen, found, bred dogs cats etc. Someone should do a video of the training of one massive Presa or pit...just a year video...you have no idea. You want to see something more horrifying than anything...watch a pit tear a 3 year old girl apart. The culture is nothing more than protect my drugs under the dog house, warn me of the SWAT team approach...protect my stolen crap from others coming to steal my stolen crap etc. Then it grew to a little gambling for blacks. Culture HILARIOUS!

Dam, you nailed that.

good work.