Best Hybrid for the buck

Liked the look of the Highlander Hybrid, but when I found out it could cost as much as 7-8,000 more. That the mpg were inflated and that you had to possibly replace the battery, at an outrageous cost, and fairly soon into ownership, it negated the deal. It may be good for the environment,but it is not economical.

Hybrid is irrelevant; the cost premium likely will negate any gas savings. Simply choose the cheapest car w/highest mpg. Consider diesel.

Once their hidden costs (e.g., what to do with spent batteries) and subsidized costs (e.g., tax incentives and otherwise artificially low prices) are taken into account, hybrids are more a symbol for affluent liberals to signal their greenness than any actual impact on the environment--or even savings.

Have I mentioned diesel?

where can you find documentation/details of the spent battery dilemma?

"Caught me?" Caught me at what, exactly?

The Prius battery is warranted for 8 years; the Prius has not been on the market for 8 years. My comment is that the costs are unknown (hence, "hidden") as of yet. I hear that junkyards charge $1000 for a salvageable battery; the industry looks forward to price decreasing, but at some point, the price is so low as to make the batteries disposable, which is in itself a problem, given Americans' unwillingness to dispose of things properly (how many old cell phones--with batteries--are scattered around *your* house?)

Other unknowns:

What happens when a Prius is in an accident and engulfed in flames? What is the cost to the environment of an abandoned Prius (versus a standard car)? What is the impact of increased demand for nickel? What is the potential environmental impact of increased usage of large-size Li-Ion batteries?

You want links and research? G--gle it yourself, mate.

Who makes a good diesel model that would fit a family?

2006 Golf diesel; Jetta too (but mpg is slightly less). Jetta Wagon is a good option as well. You wanna go cheaper? Find a source of "bio diesel" (but I am guessing that that is more commitment than you seek).

Depending on your state (i.e., CA or New England), 2007 diesels may not be available. Not too many nifty Euro cars available stateside yet (implementation of "clean" diesel here is fairly recent).

Other cheapies include various Honda products (the Fit, but might not fit your family).

Lastly--you wanna get a Prius or Camry hybrid, please do. I am only voicing my concerns. FYI: my parents got through the early 70s gas-crunch with a pair of Ford Pintos for a family of six (and later a Fiat Spider!)... We have gotten used to cavernous SUVs, consider them necessities versus luxuries. But if your family of five includes children, you can make do with even a Yaris. If you want a minivan, consider the Mazda5 (or, for maximum value to price, locate a now-discontinued MPV).

As for me: I would like to see a Mazda5 diesel (I believe they are available in the UK); barring that, the MB R320, while expensive, is a good value (although I await an increase in reliability). I would also snap up the Honda Latitude (not being shipped from Japan).

VW Jetta Sportwagen comes out this fall with a TCDI (Common Rail Diesel with a turbocharger) and gets 40 mpg in the city, 60 mpg on the highway. Will be 50 state legal for the first time since harsh CARB standards hit.

It's a decent car for a family wit 3 kids.

At current gas prices it will take a long time to recover the cost differential of a hybrid vehicle, particularly once the tax credits wind down. Obviously this swings with variations in gas prices and in your usage patterns. If you can still get a significant tax credit on the vehicle of your choice, I don't know why you wouldn't factor this into your purchasing decision however.

The first generation Prius was first sold in Japan in 1997. There were a small number of battery failures in those models. The second generation Prius which made it to the US in 2000 and Toyota claims they have had virtually no battery failures due to normal use in those vehicles or in the third generation Prius introduced in late 2003.

Replacement batteries for the current Prius list at $3000. The recovery value of the nickel in the battery exceeds the recycling cost so recycling is particularly profitable for this technology.

When a Prius is in an accident and is engulfed in flames, all kinds of toxic smoke is released, pretty much the same as any other vehicle. I'm not sure what your point is with this "unknown".

I don't see persons "green" enough to buy a Prius abandoning them willy nilly, and I'm not sure how to reconcile "$1000 for a salvageable battery" value with a rash of abandoned vehicles. Red herring?

What is the impact of increased demand for nickel? Same as increased demand for anything else, price goes up until supply meets demand. Is anyone using large-size Li-Ion batteries in passenger cars? Another red herring?

Ford Escape hybrid front wheel drive- find an 07 model-there are still some out there. With $2500 rebate or 0% financing its hard to beat,especially if you like the practicality of a smaller suv.

Citizen Runner wrote:

A. When a Prius is in an accident and is engulfed in flames, all kinds of toxic smoke is released, pretty much the same as any other vehicle. I'm not sure what your point is with this "unknown".

B. I don't see persons "green" enough to buy a Prius abandoning them willy nilly, and I'm not sure how to reconcile "$1000 for a salvageable battery" value with a rash of abandoned vehicles. Red herring?

C. What is the impact of increased demand for nickel? Same as increased demand for anything else, price goes up until supply meets demand. Is anyone using large-size Li-Ion batteries in passenger cars? Another red herring?

A. My question is whether the smoke/debris/runoff from battery innards is even more toxic; I don't know the answer.

B. No, not today; but Mr. Green eventually sells the car to Joe America who later passes it to Skeezy McFleezy late in the lifecycle of the lifecycle; McFleezy runs it into the ground and dumps it in the woods behind his house instead of replacing the battery pack (or tranny or any other major component). $1000 is what salvage yards charge, not what they pay; McFleezy may not know--or care--about any salvageable parts (this is proven in that we, indeed, find cars in the woods at all--why should a hybrid, once it reaches critical sales mass, be any different?).

C. My nickel point is ex-US commodity demand can have an unforeseen effect on the price of the batteries (to include higher insurance costs due to higher thefts along the lines of copper-drainpipe thieves; who knows?); as for Li-Ion, Toyota plans to roll out Li-Ion batteries in the next iteration of the Prius. Both NiMH and Li-Ion batteries are, at least in cell phone form, categorized as "hazardous waste."

I am not saying that these are insurmountable obstacles: my point is that the "green" crowd is so busy patting themselves on their collective backs that they overlook the short-term burden (via tax credits, i.e., making others pay for their "goodness") as well as potential long-term impact of eventual disposal--hybrids cost more than what you pay the dealer, both up front and potentially in the long term. Heck, maybe Toyota will tack on a $2,000 deposit (a la bottles and cans), but they haven't done so quite yet.

What is the tax rebate for purchasing a hybrid if it isdone this year in either NY or NC?

It varies by vehicle, follow the link below to see the full schedule.

http://www.irs.gov/newsroom/article/0,,id=157557,00.html

sorry, Scat, the "caught you" was in reference to another post i made a week or so ago and i haven't bothered to change the name. i wasn't trying to claim you're right or wrong, just looking for info.

i own a hybrid and when i bought it i did research and i've done it since then. i see lots of claims of battery problems but no verification. and yes, i've even googled. so, when i see this i wonder if people actually have something or if they're repeating something they've heard elsewhere. so far, i can't find anything conclusive.

hybrids haven't been on the market 8 years yet, you're right. but, they've been in development for much longer, so there should be some evidence. also, when they first came out i heard 3 years. then i heard 5. now i hear 8. as time passes, the number keeps growing. i want concrete evidence, not rumors, but i can't find it anywhere.

as for my house, i've owned no cell phones and i use a battery recycling facility for the odd non-rechargeables that do accumulate around my house. not many though. but i get your point.

oops, sorry, forgot i changed my name again.

signed,

had to ask

AKA caught you

AKA not sure

Not only do the VW diesel's get very good gas mileage, but last time I looked Diesel was about half a dollar cheaper per gallon than unleaded.

I don't have time to give you all of my data... but I have spend many hours claculating the ROI of purchasing fuel efficient cars. I did this for a company who is looking at purchasing auto's for sales staff.

Most cost effective with the highest ROI is the Toyota Corolla. Hands down beats any Hybrid due to the $8,000 less sticker price. It would make for a good family car too.

Toyota Corolla gets 35 to 42 mpg as a stick and you can purchase them new for $14,000. Hybrids cost $22,000 and only get 49 to 55 mpg. It would take you hundreds of thousands of miles to make up that $8,000 initial outlay in fuel savings at the pump.

I was looking at the Corolla too, but the wife was concerned that it was too small. We have a gas guzzling Grand Caravan now with 200k and it is nearing its life-span.

If the 3,000 tax credit is available with the Campry or the Escape, I think it may be worth looking into.

This fall my family will be at six. If you got little ones it's hard to fit those oversized child seats in a regular car. Here's some info from Consumer Reports April issue.

Mazda5 may be a good choice. It has 2/2/2 seating. 23 mpg but I always get better mileage than Consumer Reports reports with the many rental cars I have had.

Pontiac Vibe/Toyota Matrix has 2/3 seating with a nice big back seat. Better gas mileage than the Mazda but less power. 27 mpg

Ford Focus wagon is roomy with 2/3 seating. 24 mpg.

The new Toyota RAV4 has 2/3/2 seating and gets 23 mpg with the 4 cylinder.

Someone else mentioned Volkswagen Passat wagon. It has above average reliability, which lately has been unusual for Volkswagen. 2/3 seating, lots of power, 22 mpg but takes premium fuel.

The RAV4 looks like a decent car for the money. Does anyone out there have one, or know of their history?