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briar rabbit
deena needed help 10/9/2005 8:18AM Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
so would she have hung on if she wasn't pulled by the Hanson's? i don't think so.
oldguy
RE: deena needed help 10/9/2005 8:33AM - in reply to briar rabbit Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

briar rabbit wrote:

so would she have hung on if she wasn't pulled by the Hanson's? i don't think so.

Neither do I. There will, of course, be those who say that she ran the race with her own two feet, so what's the big deal? They're wrong. This was a team race, like the Tour de France, with Verran as Deena's principal (but not sole) domestique. It was very disappointing to see this sort of thing in what should have been a great one-on-one battle.
Wyco Loco
RE: deena needed help 10/9/2005 8:37AM - in reply to briar rabbit Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Deena didn't care about the Win. She wanted sub 2:20, the conditions were there & she went for it. You only get so many chances at that "Perfect Race".
genderequity
RE: deena needed help 10/9/2005 8:43AM - in reply to Wyco Loco Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
It's my understanding that Clint Verran wasn't just pacing Deena, he was actually coaching her throughout the course, talking to her and such. I don't really recall very many marathons when the male pacemaker for the men turns around and starts talking to them, encouraging them.

I understand that the marathon is a road race whith mixed genders, but you don't see men pacing women in cross country or track races at the junior high, high school, collegiate or international level, so why do we see it in the marathon?
briar rabbit
RE: deena needed help 10/9/2005 8:47AM - in reply to genderequity Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
today's "pacing" was disturbing. perhaps women should only pace women?
oldguy
RE: deena needed help 10/9/2005 8:48AM - in reply to genderequity Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
He was doing even more than that. He was turning around and checking on Dita's position throughout the last mile or two. If Deena hadn't been getting updates from Verran, things could have been really interesting.
rules
RE: deena needed help 10/9/2005 8:50AM - in reply to oldguy Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
It's a shame that Chicago doesn't run a seperate womens race (staggered as with NY). It is obvious that the men running with Deena gave her an advantage (blocking wind, relaying information, etc). Others will say that men have the same oppertunity, but that is not correct.
A mixed event is actually several races going on at the same time. The men running with Deena are not in her race, they are not competing for the same prizes. Plus in most cases they are running down pace and are more able to assist. Therefore they are illegally assiting her! Also, are all of the top women provided with escorts?
genderequity
RE: deena needed help 10/9/2005 8:50AM - in reply to oldguy Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

oldguy wrote:

He was doing even more than that. He was turning around and checking on Dita's position throughout the last mile or two. If Deena hadn't been getting updates from Verran, things could have been really interesting.


I agree. Deena showed poor sportsmanship by having a personal coach running with her, not only pacing her but giving her precise information about where her opponents are. I always thought it was the athletes job to be aware of how the race is unfolding. Apparently Deena Kastor thinks it is someone else's job to do that for her.
10K Runner
RE: deena needed help 10/9/2005 8:58AM - in reply to briar rabbit Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
I don't think she would have pulled off the win without his help. Not only was he offering his encouragement, telling her exactly where Tomescu was, he would have been able to position himself to block the wind, if needed. It seems a little excessive to me.
trackhead
RE: deena needed help 10/9/2005 9:04AM - in reply to rules Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Cry me a river.

1952 Olympic Marathon: Zátopek asked Peters about the pace, who replied that it was too slow. So Zátopek took off an won. Does this constitute coaching?

1968 Olympic marathon: Abebe Bikila tells Mamo Wolde to go. He wins. Was he aided?

2005 Chicago Marathon: Felix Limo was in a pack of four guys for the closing miles -- would he have run so well had he not been in that pack?

2004 Olympic Marathon: Meb Keflezighi said to Stefano Baldini (in Italian), "Let's get him," pointing to the tiring Vanderlei da Lima. They caught him. Should they be disqualified for helpping one another?


In every case, all persons involved were legal competitors in the race. If you don't like it (in the case with Deena and Verran) then petition the IAAF to no longer recognize women's WRs in mixed races.
genderequity
RE: deena needed help 10/9/2005 9:06AM - in reply to trackhead Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
But were any of those guys you mentioned above specifically coached for the entire race distance and given information about where their opponents were behind them, how far back they were, pace information, etc.?

Just curious.
Au Contraire
RE: deena needed help 10/9/2005 9:09AM - in reply to genderequity Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
It's incorrect to say she didn't "care about the win." She did; she's always stated that winning a major marathon was one of her top goals.
That having been said, this kind of pacesetting is pretty sad. To have a guy like Verran playing the role he did doesn't do much for the cause of "women's" running, does it?
rules
RE: deena needed help 10/9/2005 9:13AM - in reply to trackhead Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
It makes a mockery of the sport.
It would be the same as if a male runner had his coach riding a bike next to him!
Fortunately no records where set and the race organizers can decide to do what ever they want.
Place yourself in the role of the referee for this race. Any female runner behind Deena would have the right to protest (and technically should win the protest). But this would probably not happen because most of the womens field is taken care of with generouse appearence money.
ttc
RE: deena needed help 10/9/2005 9:14AM - in reply to Wyco Loco Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

Wyco Loco wrote:

Deena didn't care about the Win. She wanted sub 2:20, the conditions were there & she went for it. You only get so many chances at that "Perfect Race".

If you didn't view the race then seeing it would probably change your mind. Deena definitely adjusted each time Constantina threatened her. In fact, without Constantina, it's possible Deena would've run a more even race and gotten her time.

Deena wanted to run fast I'm sure, but she was definitely battling Constantina hard. She wanted to win badly.
genderequity
RE: deena needed help 10/9/2005 9:16AM - in reply to ttc Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

ttc wrote:


Wyco Loco wrote:

Deena didn't care about the Win. She wanted sub 2:20, the conditions were there & she went for it. You only get so many chances at that "Perfect Race".

If you didn't view the race then seeing it would probably change your mind. Deena definitely adjusted each time Constantina threatened her. In fact, without Constantina, it's possible Deena would've run a more even race and gotten her time.

Deena wanted to run fast I'm sure, but she was definitely battling Constantina hard. She wanted to win badly.


You're leaving out the part that Clint was turning around and apparently giving Deena specific information about who was behind her. It used to be that athletes were responsible for that type of awareness on their own.
Runner GU
RE: deena needed help 10/9/2005 9:17AM - in reply to 10K Runner Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
F*** YOU ALL!! The next time you guys try to break an american record, I would love to see how you do it. Don't critize considering you will never run at that level. Shes a female and she can still beat all of your asses.
trackhead
RE: deena needed help 10/9/2005 9:20AM - in reply to genderequity Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Berlin 2003.

Sammy Korir was paid to pace Tergat for as long as possible and help him with the victory -- and the new WR.
oldguy
RE: deena needed help 10/9/2005 9:27AM - in reply to Runner GU Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

Runner GU wrote:
Shes a female and she can still beat all of your asses.

I don't see that it's particularly relevant to the issue of pacing, but I ran four marathons in my early thirties, all of which were faster than anything that Deena has ever run, and I ran them all without pacers.

I want to add a couple of observations to this topic:

1. If Dita had won the race in the same manner that Deena did today, using some tall Romanian guy as her personal windbreak and coach throughout the race, there would be a lot more outrage from Americans.

2. Although the "pacers" may be paid by the race sponsors rather than the racers themselves, the top women -- especially, Deena in the U.S. and Paula in the U.K. -- have the power to get rid of this kind of nonsense. But they don't get rid of it. Indeed, they insist on having it. Deena is not blameless in this.
wejo
co-founder
RE: deena needed help 10/9/2005 9:27AM - in reply to 10K Runner Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

10K Runner wrote:

I don't think she would have pulled off the win without his help. Not only was he offering his encouragement, telling her exactly where Tomescu was, he would have been able to position himself to block the wind, if needed. It seems a little excessive to me.


From what we saw on the tv, everyone at our house was disturbed but I'm still don't have a complete picture. One of my roommates just yelled telling someone on the phone about it "It was Bulls***".

It looked like Clint was turning around and telling Deena how far ahead she was. That to me seems unfair. But he could have just been turning around, seeing how far back people are and not saying anything too her.

The #1 priority of the "escorts" seems to be to provide a fair race. If you noticed early on in the race when Dita fell back a Hanson guy would be with her. I think this is how it should be if there are going to be male escorts used, that each of the top women should have someone with them to make things a bit more fair. So at the end it is possible there still was a Hanson's guy with Dita (but I don't think anyone should be turning around telling Deena how far ahead she is in the closing stage of the race.).

At the same time, the escorts are primarily hired (its the most money I've ever made in running) to ensure a fast pace for the winner. So at the end if there is only someone with Deena (the leader) I can see that. But just stick to the side and run her pace. Don't assist her in any other way.

At Chicago in 2001 when I paced Paula, Catherine Ndereba dropped off around half way. One of the hanson's guys went back and ran along side of her and she actually caught back up to Paula which is fairest. Then over the final miles she was way back and it was just me and Paula. It was super windy and I felt it was unfair at this point if I broke the wind for Paula so I continued to run off the side of her, rarely on the screen. In the spirit of the "race" this seemed best. At the same time, races often times want a world record, (so if she wasn't shattering the record) and I got in front to break the wind, I think most people would argue this is just like men pacing men as I would just be pacing the leader. But its not men pacing men (as the men's pacers don't go past 20 miles), so the less the men are seen, generally the better. I think it makes for better tv too if the women are in front. But a race can just say, "we want to see how fast the women can run, we're going to have male pacers the whole way, in front". That's fine with me just have the men be as fair as possible to all the competitors.
dukerdog
RE: deena needed help 10/9/2005 9:28AM - in reply to oldguy Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
oldguy wrote:
If Deena hadn't been getting updates from Verran...

she would have been given updates from friends standing along the course.

I'm not a big fan of men pacing women either, but the IAAF needed to decide whether everything goes or nothing goes(by not recognizing times set in mixed races). They have apparently decided everything goes, which is a lot better than having someone try to judge when a women has been aided.
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