Tinman Elite goes home DEVASTATED

I think Tinman Elite is a genius. He has developed many runners to compete to their maximum. Everybody can have a very bad day. There are always many good days ahead.

but they are #sick of being mediocre

At some point the guys in the group have to start thinking about other options, right?

They do have some decent performances here and there but who really cares if you don't have it when it really matters?

I've said it before and I'll say it again - Tinman's training philosophy works amazing for high schools kids (any 15-18 year old w/ any talent will reach 90% of their potential with 50-60 mpw and consistent aerobic development workouts), very well for college kids (its not unlike the training of some quality, tried and true college coaches), and not very good for professionals.

He could dominate the HS running scene if he ever decided to coach at a school, and would do very well at a smaller college with mostly underdeveloped HS recruits coming in.

It's only a matter of time before the tinman runners stop drinking the kool-aid and there is a mutiny. Or mass exodus.

Just a guy observing, objectively wrote:

I've said it before and I'll say it again - Tinman's training philosophy works amazing for high schools kids (any 15-18 year old w/ any talent will reach 90% of their potential with 50-60 mpw and consistent aerobic development workouts), very well for college kids (its not unlike the training of some quality, tried and true college coaches), and not very good for professionals.

He could dominate the HS running scene if he ever decided to coach at a school, and would do very well at a smaller college with mostly underdeveloped HS recruits coming in.

Tinman already is dominating the HS scene -

1) Many of the best HS runners in the world developed under his guidance. Not just Drew Hunter, but also Aidan Puffer, Jusson Greer, Josh Edwards, all of these kids are current sub 9 3200m runners. He also coached Grace Ping to world age-graded records and countless other HS kids to great performances.

2) He coached Joan Hunter, and helped her and her husband develop a new program for Loudon Valley. Loudon Valley turned from a bottom-level HS XC/Track program to the best in the whole country using Tinman training.

He also used to be an assistant coach for a D3 college, not sure if that's worth something. At this point, he would probably only be interested in becoming a D1 coach at a top school, but without having been an outstanding runner himself (he was just a ~15:20 5k guy if I remember correctly) chances to become a D1 head coach at this time are close to zero.

You do realize that in HS as long as you put in the work you will be good if you have any talent?

As far as DH both his parents were great runners. He'd have been good no matter who his coach was.

What ever happened to the Pings?

The trials was the biggest event. TME was not ready. This is a huge issue. They were not able to get it done when it mattered the most. The ball did not roll fast enough.

No, the real reason he would never get a D1 job anywhere (especially a power 5 job) is because he’s socially inept. He’s also a bit of an arrogant d!ck but many top collegiate coaches are. His social skills are so lacking it’s almost as if he has something wrong with him. Have you ever had a conversation with the guy?

Vin Lanana was slow as hell and he’s one of the greatest coaches of all time so don’t act like personal PRs are an entrance barrier.

poap papalap wrote:

No, the real reason he would never get a D1 job anywhere (especially a power 5 job) is because he’s socially inept. He’s also a bit of an arrogant d!ck but many top collegiate coaches are. His social skills are so lacking it’s almost as if he has something wrong with him. Have you ever had a conversation with the guy?

Vin Lanana was slow as hell and he’s one of the greatest coaches of all time so don’t act like personal PRs are an entrance barrier.

You have a good point there, also keep in mind that Tinman Elite has no female runners at this point. Imagine Tinman coaching a group of female HS or college runners, do you think that would go well? Coaching is way more than prescribing good training, a good coach needs to be able to motivate his athletes, be there for them when they need him and find the right words in different situations. Tinman probably has very good training methods, but might be lacking in other things that a good coach needs to be able to do.

Also agree that overweight/fat coaches who weren't amazing runners themselves can be extremely good (I know many examples, especially on HS level). It's just that on LRC it's often stated as reason that if someone wasn't at least a D1 runner, they have no chance of becoming a D1 coach. Whether that's true or not, I don't know but if you look at some of the recent assistant/head coaches, they are more often than not filled by famous runners, like Solinsky in Florida for example.

Tinman is a better businessperson than he is a coach. His business model is perfect - elite high schoolers will pay tinman to write workouts. So tinman gets to work with the most talented athletes in the nation. Of course those kids are going to improve and run faster - they are the most genetically gifted athletes. Not many examples of Tinman turning a mediocre athlete into an All-American.

Right, he looks outrageously impersonal. more of a businessman who read a manual than a coach.

mutinate wrote:

Tinman is a better businessperson than he is a coach. His business model is perfect - elite high schoolers will pay tinman to write workouts. So tinman gets to work with the most talented athletes in the nation. Of course those kids are going to improve and run faster - they are the most genetically gifted athletes. Not many examples of Tinman turning a mediocre athlete into an All-American.

Not many All-Americans are mediocre athletes.

Let's be realistic. Tinman routines are for drug-free athletes. The pros who dope can handle higher mileage and intensity.

Part of the distaste for them is because they (or at least their coach) come across like they've got some great new methods (CV pace, "keep the ball rolling," 20 x 400 is fine for Rupp, but we have better things to do). So when results are no better--and sometimes worse--than those by runners who just quietly go about their business, criticism is fair.

Tinman would be nothing if there wasn't Instagram. He's just another IG influencer, even if through his athletes.

Running fast in indoor has no point in an Olympic Year. They are likely doing no VO2 work rate now. But saving it for when it matters near the track trials.

For their marathon performances I do think the training should be adjusted. It seems they do no combo long run / marathon pace running. Like a 20 miler with the first 10 miles moderate followed by 10 miles at marathon pace. I do think that would help them in these races where they can’t control the pace and just have to simply suffer.

my 3 cents wrote:

Running fast in indoor has no point in an Olympic Year. They are likely doing no VO2 work rate now. But saving it for when it matters near the track trials.

For their marathon performances I do think the training should be adjusted. It seems they do no combo long run / marathon pace running. Like a 20 miler with the first 10 miles moderate followed by 10 miles at marathon pace. I do think that would help them in these races where they can’t control the pace and just have to simply suffer.

Definitely poor coaching in the marathon. But also definitely poor coaching for the indoor track runners. Why travel across the country to get into a really fast race if you aren't ready for it?

Either he trained them horribly, or he made a really stupid decision to have them race. Regardless, tinman does not pay for travel or entry into meets so there was a lot of money wasted.

Just drop “Elite” from the team name and carry on.

Or maybe drop Tinman from the name? It is rather narcissistic to name a team after the coach is it not?

out of outsoles wrote:

So when results are no better--and sometimes worse--than those by runners who just quietly go about their business, criticism is fair.

Yeah, just what this sport needs, more runners quietly going about their business.

I think tinman has several issues. The "keep the ball rolling" training is a good idea - but for all the "moderate" training they get injured a whole lot. Since their injury rate isn't any better than other pro teams, why not just do the "hard" training that the others do?

Additionally, body composition of tinman elite suggests that strength and nutrition could benefit them greatly. These guys are not nearly as lean as most other pros