Road Racing and Training Thread - Week Ending 10/27/19

M35, 5’10”, trying to get fat for winter

2019 bests:

5k - 16:01 (flat)

5k - 15:27 (+68’ / -270’)

Boston - 2:30:21

Chicago - 2:25:12

Possible upcoming:

11/10 - 10k

12/8 - 15k or 5k

12/15 - Half

Mo: 4 @ 7:47

Tu: AM - 4 @ 7:17; PM - 8 @ 7:07

We: Off

Th: Off

Fr: 2 @ 8:12

Sa: 3 @ 7:45

Su: 6 @ 8:21

Total: 27 miles

Tuesday evening I met up with GT, who was in town for a few days. Fun run to be sure, but I pushed it a little too hard and got a bit of extensor tendinitis in both feet. I didn’t notice anything until we got stuck at a light. They then tightened up, so when we started back up I bailed. I don’t think I did any real damage, but I will have to take it easy until it clears up. Marathons do a lot of damage. I get the appeal of doing back-to-backs (AJ, OR, Napper?), but don’t see myself ever doing it.

Did some spectating for the Marine Corps Marathon on my run this morning. Saw the first few dozen runners and many of the wheel chairs. They added a 50k this year, and I saw the top two guys in that event as well. Always enjoy going to MCM, but it was raining pretty hard, and I didn’t hang around as long as I sometimes do. (And if not for the tendinitis I would’ve run farther down to catch the mid-packers.) Vaporflys were not nearly as ubiquitous as at Chicago.

Getting legitimately excited about the upcoming races for the threadren. Have a good feeling about what JQ has in store next weekend. For Indy, I need RRR to be healthy to see the showdown with GT. Pretty confident Slo can do better than 2:29, and that darkwave is ready for a good full. And, since I didn’t comment about it on last week’s thread, excellent racing, drcrusher. Looking good for Philly.

Not my best week but a decent one trying to just stay consistent in terms of quality and volume. Had some calf issues after my workout Wednesday that lingered through my second quality effort on Saturday. Otherwise no huge complaints.

M - off, 'emergency' freezer shopping

T - 10 miles, 6:20ish avg for the first 8 miles then 8x200 on/off.

200s: 32.1/46.6, 33.0/44.3, 32.2/44.8, 32.5/45.5, 32.3/44.6, 33.2/47.8, 32.0/46.7, 32.5/45.5. ~10:25 for the whole 2 miles.

W - wu/cd + 8x 3 minutes on, 1:20 jog. Ran this on a paved very slightly rolling loop trying to simulate 1ks. Our watches had the loop at .63-.66 so I think we were definitely close to 1k. First 7 in 3:00 then 2:52 to close. Good workout but I shouldn't have worn flats.

T - 7.5 miles, 6:56 avg. Very sore.

F - 5 miles, 6:48 avg. Slightly less sore.

S - wu/cd + 12k race/tempo. Still felt a little sore, although definitely much better than it had been. Went out semi aggressively and ran hard through 5. By that point I was in no man's land with the win out of reach and 3rd well back. Kept it controlled the rest of the way in. Average was 5:35 but the course had 650 feet of climbing with an awful steep downhill that was impossible to run fast down safely so that's not quite representative of the effort level. GAP had 5:15s through 5 when I backed off for whatever that's worth.

S - 17 miles, 6:15 avg. Solid controlled long run.

Total: 65 in 6 days

M42, 5'10 145ish

Goal Race: CIM 12/8 - Expectation is for it to be a building block / practice race. Just run a smart race, hopefully finish strong, learn from it and hopefully run a fast time in a few years with lots of easy basebuilding.

* - Indicates treadmill (HR is lower on the treadmill due to 0 air resistance)

MaxHR ~ 196 bpm

Mon #1 - 60 min @ 8:18 (129 bpm)

*Mon #2 - 45 min @ 5% Incline 10:07 (127 bpm)

Tue #1 - 8 miles avg 6:43 (152 bpm) with last 4 miles @ 6:08 (163 bpm)

*Tue #2 - 45 min @ 5% Incline 10:21 (127 bpm)

*Wed #1 - 75 min @ 8:39 (120 bpm)

*Wed #2 - 45 min @ 5% Incline 9:36 (136 bpm)

Thu - 35 min @ Very Hilly 8:23 (134 bpm)

Fri #1 - 75 min @ Kinda Hilly 7:21 (144 bpm)

Fri #2 - 40 min @ Very Hilly 8:28 (131 bpm)

Sat #1 - 2 Hour Long Run @ 7:16 (140 bpm)

*Sat #2 - 45 min @ 5% Incline 9:56 (129 bpm)

*Sun #1 - 9 Mile Progression Avg 7:11 (140 bpm) w/ Mile 1 @ 8:55 (119 bpm) to Mile 9 @ 5:55 (166 bpm)

*Sun #2 - 45 min @ 5% Incline 10:07 (125 bpm)

Weekly Totals

Miles: 91.3 Miles

Duration: 12:31

Elevation Gain: 7186 ft

First, Great job last week to TL, Drcrusher, and Darkwave!

M 49 5'11 185

M off

T off

W off

T 5 easy

F 8.2 5 easy 3.1 on treadmill @ 2-3% grade cut it down to 7:30 pace last half mile

S 4 easy with strides.

S 5 easy

Total 22.2

Took the first part off just to be cautious with ankle. I'll be back at it this week.

4 weeks to the Turkey trot (actually might do 2). I'm thinking 3 weeks up, 1 week down for a little block. Hills at threshold on Tuesdays, another type of threshold during the week and a 90 minute run. I'll fill the rest in with degrees of easy.

"There are 106 miles to Chicago. We have a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark, and we're wearing sunglasses." - Blues Brothers

Legs felt much more under me this week.

2:56:22 at Chicago 14 days ago

50 miler on Chicago Lakefront in 6 days

M - 5.5 @ 7:58 - 4 * 30 second strides

T - 10 @ 7:03 - 2 * 3 mile with 4:45 btwn (half + short walk) - 19:14 (6:34 - 6:25 - 6:15), 18:34 (6:19 - 6:15 - 6 flat - put the metal for the final mile. I've only got so much metal though.)

W - 6.5 @ 8:10

T - 8 @ 7:49 - had 7-8 minutes of random fartlek bursts. Probably 5:30-5:40 pace. Rocking the Timex, so best guess

F - 12.5 @ 7:16 - 7 easy, 5 @ 32:30 (633-636-630-630-621). Half to finish. Intended closer to 14, but nature was calling

Sa - 6 @ 8:23

Su - 7.5 trot @ 8:25

56 miles in 7:14:xx.

Beneficiary of some beautiful weather this week. Next Saturday is looking great for running. Early forecast is high in mid-40's, low 32ish. Race starts at 6:30, nearly a full hour before sunrise. Course is four 12.5 miles loops, with a good chunk a few feet from Lake Michigan, so strong wind could be a factor. I really have no idea what I'm doing at this distance, so this is an experiment.

Looking to get out conservatively - really trot the first lap. Running under 7 hours with a 6:40 stretch goal seems reasonable, but I've never hit 37.5 miles after 5 hours with two freaking hours to go while I'm deep in the pain cave, so we'll see. I'm guessing the mental game will have to be strong. Anticipating a handful of short walks. Flat course - I'll literally be within a half mile of my home 8 times, so I know the trail well, maybe too well.

Given the dark and cold, will probably start with a long sleeve under my singlet, a beanie and gloves, and eventually ditch the long sleeve and beanie for arm warmers and normal hat. Likely will wear Brooks Ghosts for first half (size 9.5) and Vaporfly's for the second 25 miles (size 10).

Nutrition? Like a Chicago election, except instead of voting early and often, I'll be eating early and often. Should be fun!

outsiderunner wrote:

highhoppingworm wrote:

I tend to gradually speed up during my runs so most efforts even on easy days tend to be progressions.

Hmm, sounds interesting. Perhaps I should try that sometime.

Best response ever.

A LOT of racing coming up on the board. Looking forward to it!

JQ – It’s been a joy to follow your journey this past year. Enjoy the fruits of your labor next Sunday. We’ll be cheering for you.

Nice Guy – that’s a nice mileage PR on only 6 days of running. Do you normally swim?

Slo – beastly cycle. Can’t wait until you destroy 2:29.

Coach – nice work on Sunday!

RRR – get better! Still in for a big PR in Indy.

GT – The range of you quotes is something. I actually LOL’ed reading the Steve Magness quote – just wasn’t expecting it. That Tuesday workout – it didn’t suck. It didn’t suck at all.

AJ – Is the family convinced? That’s a solid 2*4800.

Stone – Impressive progress the past several weeks. The shorter cycle really forces focus, and you’re getting done what needs to get done. Appreciate the work on last week’s comments. Good learning from your insights.

Mrs. Stone – Solid 9 miles of work on Thursday and 20 miler on Sunday.

Darkwave – You’re noting if you’re not consistent. Another strong week, laying the groundwork. Looking forward to your Indy result.

SI – Solid bike miles, man. Hope to see you at Chicago 2020, pretty sure I’m re-upping.

Hobby Jogger – I originally abbreviated your handle. Then I saw the two letters together. Not gonna do that. Looking forward to following your progress.

HHWorm – Glad to have you here! Your easy paces seem quite fast for a 3-hour marathoner. You’re either really fresh, going too fast, or will be adjusting those goals to a quicker time. Based on the single workout, I’m guessing the latter. Working on that consistency the next few weeks is likely the most beneficial route.

OR – I was wondering who flipped the switch. Strong week. 3 weeks to go!

Rucker – 12 hours is a lot of work. The beauty and drawback of cycling.

Sub 6 – It’s entirely too easy to add the pounds back. Hope the recovery is going well.

Stat – Really impressive long run following the 12k.

BHV – That’s a lot of miles! I think you’re in for a solid experience at CIM. Like the mindset.

Pappy – I like the little plan, but why 2 turkey trots?

M35, 6’-1, 155

PB / SB:

Mile 4:06 / NT

5k 14:32 / 15:24

10k 31:30 / NT

Half 1:09:47 / 1:09:47

Full 2:34:50 / NT

Upcoming Races:

10/27- Half Marathon

12/8- Marathon (CIM)

1/19- Half Marathon (Houston)

M: easy, 10M

T: strength, 10M; 6x800 @HM->10k (2:35->2:30) w 400 jog

W: easy, 8M

T: easy, 9M

F: easy, 6M

S: off, —

S: race, 19M, Half Marathon 1:08:30, 3rd OA

10/27 Total 62 (6d)

10/20 Total: 73 (6d), LR=19

10/13 Total: 75 (6d), LR=23

10/6 Total 63 (6d), Race 10M (52:45)

9/29 Total 73 (6d), LR=22

9/22 Total: 63 (6d), LR=16

9/15 Total: 70 (6d), LR=18

9/8 Total: 70 (6d), LR=20

9/1 Total: 62 (6d), LR=17

8/25 Total: 52 (5d) **Knee pain**

8/18 Total: 58 (6d) *Rest week*

8/11 Total: 70 (6d), LR=19

8/4 Total: 68 (6d), LR=17

7/28 Total: 66 (6d), LR=17

7/21 Total: 64 (6d), Race 5k (15:38)

7/14 Total: 65 (6d), LR=16

7/7 Total: 50 (5d), *Rest week*

JQ: Looking forward to following your race!

NiceGuy: Looks like you are right on track. How did the Friday workout feel? The miles at T?

slo-twitch: Definitely beastly. Is the short, hard taper something you've tried before?

RRR: Hope the nerve settles down. You've got the hay in the barn already, of course. Maybe the volume/intensity reduction will have benefits on race day. I know that you'd rather be out there working, though.

Gordon: Another good week...the day off sounded smart. Those Strava things are good because sometimes they show you stuff you might not have noticed. You're in great shape!

angryjohnny: I'd rather go fishing back-to-back.

Stone: Your Saturday "see what it feels like at pace" was similar to what I was going for on Sunday. With 6 weeks left of your training, getting a 30km feeling stretched out to 42km feeling... a little more work and a taper... looking forward to how this progresses.

MrsStone: Another very strong week. That 20 mile hilly rainy windy run... yeah, I know about that!

darkwave: Hope you are recovering well. You race pretty often, and your ability to recover and perform well on (for me) a pretty short turnaround is always impressive.

OR: How are you doing mentally?

Still: Thanks for the VF review. Again, you're doppleganging me! The thing I didn't like about the Streaks was that narrowness at the mid foot. The toe box is roomy, but I totally agree about having my arch hanging out. I think I'll start trying these things on whenever I pass by a Nike shop...

hoggy jobber: Great consistency. That builds the foundation for workouts when time permits!

highhoppingworm: Welcome! I've been 2Qing for a few cycles now. You're a bit faster than I am already and you have a lot of potential if you're relatively new to distance running. Nice to have you with us.

Time for work...

RunGuy Midwest: One is on Sunday the 24th the other is on Thanksgiving. the 24th is a 5k, hopefully break 22 in it. The second one is a 5 miler which has a tricky elevation profile. I'm pretty much an aerobic weakling still. I'm not looking forward to the 180+ foot hill in the first mile. My splits will probably be all over the place in that one.

M, 31, 6'1" 160

S. 6.5 w/ 5x 600m hill

M. off

T. 9 w/ 3x1 mile 5:55 flat, 5:38 some downhill, 5:45 some uphill

W. 5.5 easy, 40 minutes weights and core

Th. am 7 easy/ pm 2.1 easy

F. 8.2 w/ middle 6.1 at 6:28 pace through rolling hills

S. 6.1 easy 8:30 pace on treadmill, 30 minutes weights/core

44.4 miles

For sure overdid it this week. Just took nearly a month off, last week was 14 miles very easy. Luckily the ankle seems fine, but I should know better than to ramp up so quickly from injury.

It was so much fun though, so its what I'm going to do. Not as much next week. But I missed my goal race so I'm just gonna enjoy the fall weather, do long tempos in the woods and silly stuff like sprint the hills with names. We have the Cadillac of hills here, Cadillac Hill, and I have never run it for time.

Gonna hit the holiday races before settling in to a structured winter buildup for an April half. Thanksgiving 4 miler, Christmas 5 miler, NYE 5k.

RGM - Not sure who flipped the switch, but I am glad someone did. Coach Stone said it would happen. Perhaps he sent out one of his switch-flipping underlings to do it.

Yes, three weeks to go! Starting to obsess and nerd-out about all the little things...like homemade arm warmers and trimming gel packets. With two good legs, I think I can do some damage.

Coach Jeff - I am in a good place mentally. The workouts have given me confidence and I am starting to feel like myself again.

Thanks for all the well wishes. Today was a real low period. Was ready to just give it up. But. Tomorrow will be a new day.

Still Improving wrote:

Picking back on a couple of things from last week's thread. My post regarding THOUGHTSLEADER's training was more or less meant suggestion that he has some untapped potential that he can capitalize on if he is motivated to do so. I think there is a good chance he could get accepted Boston 2021 with his current time, but there is always that question mark. I was honestly surprised on the cutoff time for 2020.

For sure, and I really appreciated it. Left a few questions at the end of it, but I feel like you laid it out nicely and I have some key areas of improvement I can make. Going to probably chase the NYC Marathon AQ for the half at Brooklyn in May which is 1:21, so I think I’ll need more quality/mileage as you laid out. Can definitely put in more work to try to get that and then depending on how I feel might be time to chase a no-doubter BQ in September.

As for my post-marathon week, not too much to write home about.

Monday: Sat on my butt

Tuesday: Upper Body Lift

Wednesday: 4.5 with everything still very tight @ 825 pace

Thursday: 4.2 with fiancée @ 945, left knee got wonky at end (probably not smart to run twice in 12 hours)

Friday: Was kinda late coming from work and decided to rest knee, and do a walk after dinner instead

Saturday: 6 miles, left knee started bothering me a bit at end, this I ran at 745 and almost felt back to normal until the knee

Sunday: Knee a tad troublesome, so erring on side of caution

Tomorrow might give running a go, but will lift if not. It’s very basic runner’s knee, so I suspect it won’t ail me long. Am hoping I can run a Turkey Trot, so that’s why I’ve been dabbling with running. But I won’t push it if the knee persists. Also, new watch comes this week at long last.

Excited for the races to come, and again thank so much to everyone for the kind words and encouragement on these threads!

Also I should give myself some credit. I got a 6.5 mile bike in on Monday on the Central Park loop. Had to do something before beers and a burger for Pats-Jets.

Male, 29, 6'2", 159

PRs: 1:18:52 (March 2019), 2:45:37 (April 2019)

Goal race: Half Marathon (11/17/19) ~ 1h15

Recovery week was great. Now back to grinding.

Mon: DR - 1h - 8mi w/ a surge --- courtesy of my fellow run mates

Tue: HS - 10 x 15" on 90" send off

DR - 1h15 - 9mi --- hilly and easy

Wed: DR - 40' - 5mi --- easy

LT - 1h15 - 11.5mi w/ 7 x 1mi @ LT r=200m jog < 60"

splits: 5'48 / 41 / 48 / 49 / 48 / 49 / 48

quite windy

Thu: DR - 1h - 8mi --- easy

Fri: DR - 40' - 5mi --- easy

CV - 1h20 - 11.25mi w/ 8 x 1000 CV r=(100 walk + 100 jog) + 4 x 200 fast

splits: 3'24 / 23 / 21 / 27 / 28 / 31 / 30 / 28 + 0'33 / 32 / 32 / 32

quite windy

Sat: DR - 1h - 7.75mi --- feeling sluggish

Sun: LR - 1h40 - 15.25mi w/ 6mi @ HMP + float strides

wanted to do 20' tempo + 10 x 1'/1'

tempo was against the wind, very soon found myself losing momentum

so decided to cut it into 2mi + 4 x 1mi r=60"

splits: 11'48 / 6'07 / 5'51 / 5'41 / 5'50

Total: 10h30 - 85 miles

Overall good beginning of the week and a bit frustrated with Sun session.

First time I try Tinman CV session and I was very pleased. 4 x 200 set my hamstrings on fire

and I felt the heat all the way home. Nice polishing touch.

* DR - Distance Run; HS - Hill Sprints; LT - Lactate Threshold Run; CV - Critical Velocity; LR - Long Run

slo - hammering

GT - ditto

Hurt my foot the 1st weekend of September and ended up taking three weeks off before it felt ok to run on it. Then had a string of other health related issues (nothing serious) and am getting back into things.

M: yoga

T: 5 w/ 4x4x~400m relay. Probably didn't even average sub 2 pace for my legs. Also let my team down and got passed on the final leg.

W: 0

Th: 7

F: 0

S: 8

S: travelling

F42

Upcoming goal race:

Philadelphia Marathon 11/24/19

Used a little bit of an easier week to bring my legs back up from the half-marathon on the 20th.

Mo: 6.5 very easy, legs were heavy and even a little sore.

Tu: off, traveling

We: 9.5 easy, better but still feeling the race

Th: 10.6 easy, almost normal

Fr: 1 E + 5 M + 2.5 E. I was hoping to do 6-8 at M pace but while easy running seemed back to normal my legs were not recovered from that race. M pace (7:35-7:40) was comfortable from an effort perspective but there was general fatigue lingering in my quads in particular, so I made it to 5 and called that good for the day.

Sa: Due to the impending Sunday morning monsoon I moved my long run to Saturday, which felt unnatural but I didn't want to do 22 miles in pouring rain. Not too bad. Had difficulty stabilizing effort at easy. My legs just wanted to go for some reason (though they were not very fresh feeling) but I didn't want to burn out after the first 10 miles and then make the rest an unproductive slog. Had to pay close attention which makes a long run feel even longer.

Su: normally I take the day after a long run off, and the morning was every bit as awful as the forecast predicted (I felt bad for anyone doing the MCM; I have a friend who did the 50K) so I was on track to keep my post-long run rest day, but the sun came out really nice in the late afternoon so I went out for some easy miles. At first it felt OK but then I really started to feel the prior day and cut short the hour I planned and only did 4.5 miles. It seemed almost hot out (it was in the 70s).

Week's total was only 62-ish ("only"!) but considering recovery from a race it was good. This week I'll bump back up, see how that feels, and then start to think about when I want to taper and how I want that to go.

More thanks for the race comments. I wanted to tell Stone Cutter specifically that I greatly appreciated your thoughts about those 8 seconds in the half marathon and realized you hit the nail on the head. I know EXACTLY where those seconds were lost, and had the exact thoughts you predicted I had in regard to negotiating with myself about maybe only making 7:20 this mile vs the 7:10 I had been hitting before. I'm going to make a printout of your statement about "winning each mile" so I can have it to look at now and then to remind me, get it in the front of my mind. The day before your post, I did that M workout and because of the fatigue, I adjusted how far I planned to run at M pace. Originally I thought I'd do 8, then I quickly adjusted it to 6. After only 2 miles, it became "get through this mile, then see." I hit every mile at the pace I needed to, but then had to "reset", as you said, to get through the next one at that pace. Even when I'm feeling better than I did Friday, I tend to do this in workouts like this, especially as they get longer. So I already do this to some extent -- but maybe I let myself off the hook in a race when it gets even harder. I'll try to come up with a little physical cue like yours to remind me during a run to focus only on hitting the mile I'm in.

(Side note -- I used to live near St. Joe's. I did all my training for my first marathon in 2004 nearby. Lots of long runs included stretches of City Avenue because it had a sidewalk. And out-and-backs on Montgomery to Rosemont where the sidewalk ended. Looking back it seemed hard to find enough real estate with sidewalks to do those long runs and not get lost in the winding neighborhoods. I did all my speed work on the track at Lower Merion high school in lane 8. Ah, those innocent days not knowing what I was getting myself into!)

Weather sounds pretty good (apart from possible wind), I'd wear singlet and short shorts, maybe start with gloves. long sleeves under the singlet is reasonable for wind or plebeians. What surface is it on? gravel? road or trail? I've only done trail ultras, wore Asics Cumulus and Nike Pegasus (and Kinvara last year but wouldn't recommend), Im not sure the vaporflys would be good to wear. Dont alot of people complain about how they feel at slow paces? But either way I can't imagine doing a road ultra, the pounding. Loops will be a mental challenge for sure.

For nutrition I've had success with GU gels and Roctane drink mix. Every other bottle I use roctane drink mix and then water only. I try to have 1-2 GU gels an hour on top of that. Then to get salt just grab what looks appealing at aid stations (pretzel, salt covered potatoes, broth). Idealy you already know what works for you, but I sure didnt the first few.

7 hours is a good goal, especially on a flatter course, I'd shoot for 8min pace running and 20 minutes total at aid stations. Be really careful about spending too much time at aid stations (especially later on). The best ultra advice I've received was to get in and our as quick as possible (and how to do that)

Sounds like fun, I wish I had my ultra of the year(age 26, not calendar) picked out

-RS