Why do I race so much slower than my workouts?

malmo wrote:

not slow twitch wrote:

My workouts are often 20-30 seconds faster per mile for almost double the distance races, but I always break down mid race. In my season opener 5K, I broke down around mile 2 and in my 8Ks my legs are going lactic around 3- 4K in. I don't understand how my workouts have been going so smoothly (making weekly progress with what feels like the same effort) but whenever it comes time to race I feel so heavy and weak.

Not sure if this is mental or a result of doing a lot more mileage than I am used to in-season. Any tips for staying locked in when it gets tough?

You don't have a realistic assessment of your training, nor do you have realistic expectations for your races.

Someone who lives in the real world performs at or better than their expectations.

Hi malmo,

First off, I am super grateful a distinguished poster with great running knowledge such as yourself is throwing in your 2 cents.

Second, I realize that in races people often perform better than expectations, which is why I am so frustrated because I know I am capable of better. In what ways should I assess my training? Relative effort? Work done at race pace? I don't quite understand what you mean by realistic expectations because I always believed that I should dream big when it comes to time goals. With that in mind, aside from my season opener, I didn't think going out in 5:30 was an unrealistic pace to go out in for someone who is at my level of my fitness. Do you mind elaborating a bit?

Thanks

- a college kid who just wants to run fast

You have good questions. What I'm trying to get at is that too often young runners are trying to equate a current workout to translate to a specific result in racing. Usually the result is a specific time. In cross country time mean diddly squat, unless you are comparing time results on a specific course. So the method is workout A translates to performance B. It really doesn't work that way. Your race results will be the accumulation of all of your previous training, not of a specific session the week of the meet.

Cross country is an athletic competition, and as such, your focus should be on beating your fellow competitors, not on a pre-determined time result. When you toe the line your goal should be on beating everyone that you think you can. All of the runners who beat you this time your next goal should be to beat as many of them as possible next time...AND...to not let any runner that you've already beaten beat you!

I've always been a big advocate of setting his goals, but not unreasonable goals. Your goals should be just out of reach, but attainable. Each time you step up, set new goals. But don't set time goals, set competitive goals. Who you gonna beat? I don't think that I had ever set a time goal until my Senior year in college. I'm serious. My Senior year my competitive goals were to finish top five at NCAA XC (I was 20th), win the indoor DMR (we were 3rd) and to break 8:20 sc at Penn Relays (I was injured, and couldn't run the steeplechase until late may.) But I had thought about that 8:20 on every run, and had rehearsed it in my mind over and over hundreds of times. Set big goals and if you get lucky enough good things can happen.

So back to you. Think about who you want to beat this week, or next week. Make that "want" into a "need" and go out there and do it. Also don't think that everything is going to fall your way. It won't. There are very few people in any aspect of life who will have a continuous, uninterrupted string of successes, so it's not even worth your time to have that expectation for yourself. But know this: every failure is a stepping stone towards your next success. It's not a pithy platitude, it's a truism. Live it.

I don't know about you, but for me every breakthrough came directly after a slump or a plateau. But I never lost sight during a slump. Always kept my eye on the goal. So if you're in a slump now then act like you've been there before. Peaks and valleys are all part of your journey.

shrekked wrote:

I too have had issues with this. My mile pr is a 4:50 but I can often run mile repeats around 4:15 per with 1 minute rest. Not sure what the problem is. Let me know if you can figure out a solution!

You often run mile repeats in 4:15 with 1 minute rest?

That's a major typo you done typed there ain't it?

Thanks Malmo, I truly needed those last words.

-A HS kid who's watching his season disintegrate in front of him

Really nice thing to do there Malmo.

I actually assumed those three listed workouts were done over three different weeks; they are clearly "threshold workouts" and I repeat, I believe they are appropriate for college males especially. Some programs do sustained runs and some do long rep/short recovery but all to the same effect.

Here is what I am getting at: they are not difficult workouts, and in a lot of programs they are a weekly staple of fall distance training. Young runners do them too fast because they can with out too much difficulty. But, given the large volume associated with the work, if done too fast on a Monday/Tuesday your legs will be in rough shape for the weekend race, especially if you are throwing some 9-14 mile easy runs in mid week.

My suggestion: give it a week or two where you run with a slower group for the short recovery "threshold" workouts. See if your legs get back under you and racing gets easier. Even if that does not work, it is rarely extremely detrimental to back off or be conservative with training.

Also, as I said before, male distance runners also need to adapt to racing 8k. If out too fast you are essentially constrained to "threshold pace" for the last portion of the race. Try to deliberately back the early mile splits off by 5-10 seconds and roll for the final two miles, and see if that works better.

Hope it works out, the transition to college can be tough on the men's side. Races are longer, easy run and workouts are longer and it can take time to adjust.

Thanks for this, malmo. Really appreciate it, especially your own personal anecdote along with the advice.

After doing some reflecting on my last races, I realized I had individual time goals in every single one and didn't give placement much thought, when Cross should be the opposite. I am confident with my current fitness and in the training I am doing, it is time for me to race the other runners instead of just focusing on racing the clock.

Thank you for this, gave me some good insight, especially the "constrained to threshold pace" part. Makes a lot of sense, I'll definitely give it a shot

So those are not your times? You're just making up numbers?

The workouts were close to but not exactly my times, but the difference between workout paces and race paces were the same. The bottom paragraph about my racing experience were all my actual times. Did this simply to maintain anonymity while still having the advice apply to me.

Well, just slow down your workouts and run faster in your races.

Then your races will be faster than your workouts.

Problem solved.

I felt the same way when I was transitioning to the 8k. I was used to attacking the hills and challenging parts of the course. So, even though I often tried to relax during the first two miles, and my splits were fine, I was burning matches when I didn't have to. Once I stopped attacking the hills and passing hard early, my legs felt a lot better miles 3-4.

Malmo with an all-time classic response.

I’d add that, even during workouts, you are practicing the competitive goal rather than running for time.

In college, I would run a lot of mile repeats in 5:20 for 5-8 of them. My college or for 8k was 28:00. I got very good at running these 5:20 miles with rest, but was most likely running them with even or positive splits (like 2:35/2:45 for each half). That does not translate to good 8k running.

After I graduated, I stopped doing “mile repeats” and started doing 5:00 repeats with a pickup for the last 1:00. I may have been running 6:00 pace for most of the rep, maybe some days it was 5:20 pace, but I always saved a little something for the end. Within a year, I ran 26:20 for 8k on a cross course. I was training to race and feel in control rather than reaching for a time goal.

I'd bet money you are doing standing rest. For most people you can get away with this but for some you just get really good at recovering very quickly between hard efforts. Try some alternation style workouts. So for the 10x1km try to run 6 x1km a the same 5:20 pace but instead of a minute rest do a full KM but at 6:00 pace. If you can do that then try to do the rest at 5:50 pace.

With the progression run you are fine but you are easing into the effort in a race I'm guessing you are going out fast and building acid up and your body is doing a poor job at clearing it while you are moving, You are excellent at clearing it at full rest. I would try running some faster repeats but with the active recoveries. So like a deeks quarters session. do 8x400m with a steady 200m between reps. So say 75 seconds for the 400's and try for 50's on the recovery. This will teach your body to flush acid while running and I think it will help you a bit.

Lastly your tempo's from the summer are concerning. If you are racing on similar terrain and struggling much more I would get your ferritin checked. You probably aren't medically anemic but if you're ferritin is under 50 or so it can impact performance.

Think about this - you are comparing actual race times to predicted race times from workouts. One of those things is the real deal and the other is an estimate of the other. Your race times are your race times. That is your fitness level. That's who you are. Not the workouts. Re-center your expectations and workouts accordingly.

Pay close attention to the quoted post.

I have been there myself and seen countless teammates train like this. They'll run 5x1m at 5:00 but their first lap is a 70 and keep slowing down from there. None of them could come close to a 25m 8k. Their weakness is often exposed in tempo runs: they're interval heroes but if we went out and did a 30-45m hilly tempo, they'd get dropped.

I would say with 90% certainty if you start working out at sensible paces instead of racing your workouts; finish as hard as you start; train don't strain - then you'll see improvements.

You're probably racing your workouts. Each rep should be thought of as a portion of a race, not a race for each rep.

To run a 5k at 5:20 pace, you'd want to 'comfortably' run 1k reps at 3:20 (about 5;20 mile pace).

I went to a very small school where I was the fastest guy in my junior and senior year. I was certainly nothing spectacular - I was running around 25:20 and 32:00 for 8K and 10K. The guys I trained with were all running 26:30 and 34:00. Interestingly, we tended to run almost all of our workouts together and the guys would beat me in workouts occasionally. I felt as though I was giving it a decent, but not all out effort.

These guys constantly underperformed come race day and I always suspected part of it was working too hard multiple days per week.

Burnout. Happened to me a couple of track seasons ago. The only way to fix it is a reset. Two weeks without any activity minimum. Then go easy for a while after that

2 quick questions before I get into the thick of it. How many miles a week are you running and what is your long run at?

Everyday in your training schedule is important. Not just the days where you are pushing it. The best way to get better is by running more. How you decide to do that is on you. If you want to do a shake out run in the morning or add on to your aerobic runs, that is ultimately up to you. I am also a college XC runner and i'm pretty low on mileage at only 70 a week, but the rest of my team is only at 50 and there is a reason why I am beating them by a minute thirty in races. Also make sure you are not going too fast these days. They are meant to be at an easy pace. Easy is relative from person to person. so if you're running much slower than everyone else it doesn't matter. One thing I would like to point out is you do a lot of similar workouts. No hill specific or tempo changing(Fartlek)workouts. One pace and holding it. You have to mix it up both to prevent burnout and to prevent working the same system every time. Maybe talk to your coach and instead of doing 5 X 1 mile, do 20 X 400s. Instead of doing 6 hard at the end of an aerobic run, do a 5-4-3-2-1 fartlek with even recovery. Even though they are the same distance, they are completely different workouts. Also, I saw someone mentioning jogging in-between reps instead of standing around. That is an easy way to add mileage to your workout days and makes your body work even in the recovery. It doesn't have to be fast, any amount of jogging will help. All in all, a good variety of workouts and getting that high mileage without running too fast can do wonders for your race time. Just my thoughts on the post.