Sub 3HR Fall Marathon Thread - The quest for less amateur glory begins?

Have to ask...are you really 5'/152? Or is that a typo lol. Impressive workouts. For the 10xMile at 6:19 what sort of rest were you giving yourself or was that continuous?

HarryPlopper wrote:

Here's my taper plan. Feedback welcome.

M: 4M EZ OR OFF

T: 10M W/ 5X1M @ 6:45 FOR FIRST 3 AND 6:30 FOR LAST 3

W: 4M EZ

R: 10M W/ 5M @ 6:45 & LEG STRENGTH

F: OFF & UPPER STRENGTH

S: 14M LONG

S: 4M EZ

M: 4M EZ

T: 8M EZ W/ 4 X 1K @ 6:45

W: 5M EZ

R: 4M EZ

F: TRAVEL/OFF

S: 3M EZ

S: CIM!!!!

REST!! You're in excellent shape, but you are on the edge. This is the hardest time. Body wants to ride on the fact that you're in shape and go fast. But you should do the opposite! I suggest you do your workouts as planned and run really slow on your EZ days. Like 8:30-9:00s. If you feel tired, skip EZ and rest. Actually, I'd insert an extra rest day instead of EZ in the remaining weeks. Don't mess it up. You will feel like sh*t for a while, but trust the training and closer to race day you will be bouncing of excess energy :-)

THOUGHTSLEADER wrote:

Have to ask...are you really 5'/152? Or is that a typo lol. Impressive workouts. For the 10xMile at 6:19 what sort of rest were you giving yourself or was that continuous?

Oops! That would be pretty impressive as my BMI would be 30! I’m actually 5’8”

I did those mile repeats with 1/4 mile ez job between, about 8:30 pace.

Looks good. Man, I envy your taper. I'm still trying to build mileage after missing October with injury!?.

I was going to say the 14M on Saturday is cutting it close, but given your high volume in weeks past you should handle it no problem.

That final week should have you thoroughly rested. Are the 1ks at 6:45 per mile or per kilo?

Out of curiosity, with the race so early Sunday morning, when is the best time to jog on Saturday?

HarryPlopper wrote:

THOUGHTSLEADER wrote:

Have to ask...are you really 5'/152? Or is that a typo lol. Impressive workouts. For the 10xMile at 6:19 what sort of rest were you giving yourself or was that continuous?

Oops! That would be pretty impressive as my BMI would be 30! I’m actually 5’8”

I did those mile repeats with 1/4 mile ez job between, about 8:30 pace.

Makes a lot more sense ha. Good stuff on the mile repeats, I'm trying to add more sustained HM-paced or slightly faster work to my next buildup and trying to find the best way to do so.

I had a momentarily frightening moment on my run yesterday.

Yesterday I was feeling good after a super-easy day Weds. (very pleased with fartlek I did Tuesday) so I ran pretty quick after an easy first mile. 6:55-7:10 pace on rolling terrain. When I was going down a hill towards the end my left knee which had been a thing since the marathon suddenly buckled, short-circuited (?) and kicked out mid-stride. I righted myself and caught my landing and was like oh crap is my knee done? Nothing exactly hurt, though. I walked a step or two, checked on my mobility and I was able to run completely normal from then on without having to run slower or alter my stride.

When my knee was initially bad, too, it would stiffen up after long bouts of sitting and hurt going downstairs. None of that today in the aftermath. Really would have no inclination that anything had happened/could be wrong other than that moment. Knee has felt better this week and has been less noticeable...so, I really don't know.

Today was going to be a day off anyway, and I'll have Wednesday off before a Turkey Trot Thursday. I think 4-5 days off after that might be best just to put this thing to bed.

mwh wrote:

Looks good. Man, I envy your taper. I'm still trying to build mileage after missing October with injury!?.

I was going to say the 14M on Saturday is cutting it close, but given your high volume in weeks past you should handle it no problem.

That final week should have you thoroughly rested. Are the 1ks at 6:45 per mile or per kilo?

Out of curiosity, with the race so early Sunday morning, when is the best time to jog on Saturday?

I do the K's at 6:45/mile.

I like to do my Saturday shake out early in the morning and then get a good breakfast in me when my muscles are most craving glucose. This gives me time to go to the expo after breakfast and then put my feet up all afternoon.

I've been lurking here for a while and hadn't planned on posting, but here I go anyway.

Background: M56, 6'1", 162-165 lbs.

When race ready, I'm really a middle distance track guy (800-1500-mile). But I've not been race ready since 2011 because of Achilles/heel surgeries in 2012 & 2013, then a host of other issues since. In the time since, I've been a heavy ElliptiGO rider - nearly 37,000 miles since early 2014. But I've not been able to put together 6 straight months of even light jogging in 8 years. I'm at 5 months now (after missing most of the first half of the year) running first 3 and now 4 days a week, supplemented by riding.

Target race is CIM , goal time is sub 2:55. That's what I ran in my one and only marathon, which was CIM in 2011.

Marathon training started last week of August, when I ran 18 @ 7:12 pace for 41 total on 4 days. The weeks since:

W/E 9/1 - 4 runs, 20 @ 7:11, hill repeats; 43 total; 104 miles riding on 5 days

W/E 9/8 - 3 runs, mile race @ 5:09; 21 total; 188 miles riding on 7 days

W/E 9/15 - 4 runs, 19.5 @7:30 felt crappy (planned 22), 3 miles tempo & 2 miles @ MP; 42 total; 141 miles riding on 6 days

W/E 9/22 - 4 runs, 5x mile 5:53 - 5:48; 34 total; 206 miles on 5 days with one 100miler

W/E 9/29 - 4 run, 22@ 7:02, 3 miles on/off 200s; 45 total; 88 miles riding on 5 days

W/E 10/6 - 4 runs, 6x 800 @ 2:50; 43 total; 94 miles riding on 5 days

W/E 10/13 - 4 runs, 22 @ 7:05; 44 total; 98 miles riding on 5 days

W/E 10/20 - 4 runs, 2x 1.5 tempo; 5x mile 5:54 to 5:42; 32 total; 150 miles riding on 6 days

W/E 10/27 - 4 runs, 24 @ 7:04, 16x 400; 49 total; 92 miles riding on 4 days

W/E 11/3 - 3 runs, 20 mile race @ 6:30 pace. Shocked the hell out of me - expected 6:45 pace. 34 total; 101 miles riding on 5 days

W/E 11/10 - 5 runs, 15 w/ 12 at MP; 48 total; 56 miles riding on 3 days (out of town)

W/E 11/17 - 2 runs, missed 4 days sick; 20 with 3x 4miles @ 6:30; 6:52 average overall; 32 total; 48 miles riding on 2 days (sick)

W/E 11/24 - 4 runs, 13.1 @ MP; 136 miles riding on 6 days

Taper mode now; today's workout was 1.5 miles @ 5:55 pace plus easy jogging.

Over these weeks, my daily runs were typically 7-8 miles and have increased in average pace from 7:15ish to around 6:50ish. Prior to the 20 mile race, my CIM goal was just to break 3 hours, but now I think 2:55 is the goal.

Hopefully after this, I can get back to track training and masters track racing.

Good luck to you at CIM, HarryPlopper.

Your training raises the eternal conundrum of tapering. It looks like you average low 40s for weekly mileage, so I wonder if it's necessary or wise to cut back much from that already modest amount.

In support of my question, I see that your surprise 20M performance came after your highest week of mileage! I've seen lots of records set by surprise in the throes of heavy training, followed by a disappointing performance in the goal race with a big taper.

I think peaking is the most magical thing about running, but one week of taper seems like plenty to me.

I'm actually considering to do some more quality early this week, due to tons of missed training time with injury...

I am very inexperienced so take my opinion as a novices opinion but I agree with MWH. I don’t see how you can pull together a solid multi week taper on 40 miles a week. In your shoes I would probably keep miles at 40 or so 2 weeks out and just do an easier faster workout... maybe 12-14 with a 3-4 mile tempo in there and then just look to hit 40 again including CIM the following week.

I tried to pull off a low mileage two week taper in a half marathon in September and showed up to the line feel springy but not particularly strong.

It is hard to gain running fitness in 2 weeks in my experience but off low mileage you can certainly lose it.

Hi all,

Today i ran a 38:08 10k and im planning to run Rome in end of March. I ran a 3:12 in September going for 25km at 3h pace. My runs consists of doing 2 quality workouts a week (fartlek, long intervals, short intervals, and hills) plus a long run between 22 and 30km averaging 4:30/4:40 km. Im running around 120 km a week with a some easy doubles also with my girlfrend at 6:00 km pace to ease legs (around 25km a week). Hoping to drop another 3-4kg by march and keepimg my mileage high. Do you think i can do better than 3? Im hopeful for 2:50 if training goes all smooth. I already ran 3 marathons (3 26, 3 19, 3 12) in 3 years.

Thank you for your feedback

Thanks for the input, mwh and hhw. I'll admit to having similar thoughts lately, but I've never been a high mileage runner because of persistent injuries, especially the past eight years. I've been working through some minor Achilles soreness the past month too, but nothing that has affected my running. My one & only marathon back in 2011 (age 48) was also off relatively low mileage since I ran it six weeks after finishing up my last track meet (an 800). After that race, I did long runs of 16-21-20-18 over the next four weeks. I was on 2:50 pace into mile 22, but then the last three miles were 7:15s. Officially I ran 2:55 but running time was 2:52 because of two bathroom stops.

The past three weeks have been 31 (sick week), 35 and now 30 miles this week plus 100 miles of ElliptiGO riding average per week. I'll may do a 10-12 miler either later today (it's raining over snow covered streets right now) or tomorrow, assuming the weather clears. If not, it is what it is. Otherwise I'll have my normal three runs of 7-8 miles ea this coming week prior to Sunday's marathon. I don't plan to be a marathoner, so as long as I get through this uninjured and ready to start building for track season, it's all good.

5k time keeps come down, 18:31 now at 65k a week. Planning to keep slowly building up to 80k a week, and hopefully that alone will be enough to crack 18 and then I’ll start a start a proper structured routine to peak for a race.

Still not sure what, but feel I should probably do something quick and fast in the spring, then go for sub 3 again in the fall, that said, part of me is definitely tempted to do a spring marathon instead.

Free_the_thigh wrote:

Still not sure what, but feel I should probably do something quick and fast in the spring, then go for sub 3 again in the fall, that said, part of me is definitely tempted to do a spring marathon instead.

How about doing both in the spring? Do 5K training, but include marathon-style long runs. That worked for me -- set my lifetime 5K and marathon PRs a week apart.

Low mileage like you: Average weekly training volume was about 70 kilometers. Peak week was 110 kilometers.

Netted a 16:0x, and 2:40:xx a week later.

2:52 (1:23/1:29). Like most other folks at CIM today, I went for a real stretch goal (2:45) and died. Still, not a bad debut for an injured old man who trained for 5 weeks.

Phil's summary over on the 2:19/JS thread summed up my experience H2.

I can't complain about the weather, as the start was dry and neither hot nor cold. There was some rain later and wind, but it refreshingly offset the humidity.

Race organization was the worst ever, and the lack of promised shuttles almost caused me to miss the race entirely, and did eliminate any warm-up. . . not that I was planning a huge one.

H1 is damn hilly! I was not ready for that, compounding my lack of training issues.

CIM Race Report: The course is billed as fast and is a net downhill, but there are an endless stream of rollers for the first 18-20 miles. I was not ready for that. The weather was relatively favorable, 50F at the start, but 90% humidity.

Try as I could, I was not able to break 3 hours. I managed to stay in contact with the 3-hour group until about 12 and then lost them on an uphill. I started cramping a bit at 16 or 17, even though I was gulping the hydration drink like crazy. The aid stations were a bit of a disaster and very congested.I managed to put in some 6:55-7:10 from 12 to 20, but then the wheels really fell off. I slowed to 7:25-7:40 from 20-26 just to keep my legs from seizing up. I managed to get a Boston Qualifier with 3:06:25 and missed my PR by 21 seconds.

So what went wrong? My preparation included 2730 miles of training, lots of speed work, a 1:25 half marathon, and 15 lbs of weight loss (7% body fat). Part of it was the weather. It got really cold in New England, relative to Northern CA, in the last 4 weeks and I’ve been running in 25-45F temperatures. Last week it snowed! I was hot during the race and could feel it, thus the cramping. The second was my taper. I think that my 14 day taper was too long given that I had been training on 9-day cycles (1 hard day-2 ez days) for the last 3 months. I think I missed my peak by 3-4 days, having hit it back on Wed/Thur of this week.

Even though I’m disappointed in my performance, it’s been an amazing journey along the way. I’ve never enjoyed running so much as I have in the last 17 months. On top of it, I learned to train harder and smarter, while becoming more fit than ever.

Question: Do you all think the 50 vs. 30F temps are enough to explain a bad day?

HarryPlopper: Congrats on getting through CIM and sorry to hear you didn't hit your goal or quite hit a PR. Sounds like the crowds/organization was problematic and combined with a slightly over-extended taper and some whether that you weren't used to it all added up to you not quite hitting the time your fitness indicated. I definitely think that 50 vs. 30 is a huge difference. As a big guy who sweats a lot I find that I run my best in the high 20s, low 30s for any workout over 10 miles. 50s and over is pretty rough for me with 70s+ being more akin to a death march.

In an effort to keep this thread alive as I found it to be very motivating early on in my training cycle I will give the highlights of my last few weeks. As opposed to some that are shutting it down for the winter and going into maintenance mode I am ramping up currently for my goal marathon in late February in Cape Cod. I kind of fluctuate between tracking miles ending on Saturday (per Daniels) or ending on Sunday. Below is the ending on Saturday version so that I preserve my Q1s as being the first day of the week.

Stats: 34M/6'2"/185/Running since June

Goal Race: Hyannis Marathon on 2/23/2020

Goal Time: D = Boston Qualifier (3:05), C: Sub 3, B: 2:55, A: 2:50, A+: 2:45

Week ending 11/23:

Q1: 3E+8M+1E+3M+1E. Avg. 6:41. Avg. Splits 8:06/7:39/7:28/6:28/6:31/6:14/6:32/6:26/6:25/6:20/6:20/7:13/6:08/6:13/6:08/6:48. Strava was about 7 second per mile fast I think. Assuming this I average 6:27 for the M paced miles.

Q2: 5E+3 x 2T w/ 2' rest+2 x 1T w/ 1' rest+2E. Avg. 7:00. I ran the T miles at the track so have exact splits. Strava is the worst for intervals. 6:07/6:07, 5:58/6:07, 6:06/6:00, 5:57, 5:57. Average T mile pace was 6:02.23. I cheated myself on the rests and probably took 1:45 and 0:50 instead of the full amount.

Total: 77 miles

Week ending 11/30:

Q1: 21E. Avg. 7:35. Felt solid. Most miles were 7:10-7:25 but got lost in the middle and ran a 9 minute mile stumbling through the woods.

Q2: 2E+5k+7E. 16:40.42 5k. Very happy with the time considering 20+ mph winds. Finished 5th overall.

Total: 77 miles

Week ending 12/7

Q1: 2E+2 x 2T w/ 2' rest+8E+2T+2E. Overall Avg. 6:59. T miles were 5:50/6:03, 5:52/5:57, 5:42/5:58. I timed these on my stopwatch so will take these over the Strava splits. E miles were solidly in the low to mid 7s. All-in-all I did what I wanted and didn’t feel like I was over-exerting at any point. That said, starting 2 miles of tempo after 14 miles is a bit mentally difficult.

Q2: None. Work travel.

Total: 77 miles

Week ending: 12/14

Q1: 3E+8M+1E+4M+1E. Avg. 6:49. 4 degrees and icy. Changed to 3E+8M+1E+4M+1E. Cut cool-down short due to cold. M miles were 6:33,6:33,6:22,6:24,6:29,6:33,6:30,6:32 and then 6:04,6:11,6:08,5:58. E miles were 7:58,7:34,7:22 to warm up 8:11 in the middle and 8:05 to cool down. Very pleased given the conditions. It was REALLY rough out there.

Q2: TBD

Total: TBD (but probably 77 miles if you pick up on the consistency over there).

Congrats on the Boston qualifier -

Weather is no joke and 90% humidity will impact your ability to perform throughout the race. You're coming from a climate that since early September, you probably could manage 15-18 mile runs with ANY water intake and "feel fine". I'm sure what you experienced on Sunday was completely different. That + mentally being surprised at the course's difficulty can lead to a very frustrating day.

You hit your marks - had a great training cycle and learned a lot. Take that energy into a deep sub 3 in Boston 2021 or perhaps next year!

@HarryPlopper: My guess is a combo of the weather and the hills got you. Certainly you were probably sweating a lot and I think the double-whammy was the punishment your legs were taking. I'd put less on the taper, but I think I am generally less concerned about tapers than most (maybe cuz in longer races I haven't had a taper snafu yet). Still great job snagging the BQ.

@bhm: nice job as well, I'm always impressed by people hanging on after going for it in a marathon

*@mwh, my mind is going