SAD NEWS: "Caster Semenya to miss World Championships after court ruling".

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4 years ago 07/30/2019 10:04pm EDT

re: logician

logician wrote:
The facts: Semenya is an XY male with pitiable external genitalia due to an accident of biology in the womb, a condition called 5-ARD.
Semenya is NOT an "unusual female."
Semenya is an "unfortunate male."
AGAIN, Semenya IS IN NO WAY A FEMALE. She is 100% male, with undeveloped genitals. FULL STOP.
The IAAF failed to get these simple facts to the media--the NYtimes and everyone else painted this as an unusual female with elevated testosterone. The IAAF should have been shouting from the rooftops since 2009 that Semenya is not an "unusual female" but an "unfortunate male." Why they did not take this path--if they knew she was XY 5-ARD-- I can not understand. It led to an unnecessary 10 year loss for true female athletes. This legal battle should have been done in 2010, not 2020.
AGAIN: Semenya is 100% male. She is NOT a female in any biological sense.
A poster a few months ago whose name I can not recall did a great job of researching and presenting her condition of 5-ARD.
The issue is clouded by the SEPARATE issue of MTF transgenders wanting to participate in women's' sport
This does NOT mean Semenya is to be ridiculed or mistreated in any way. She is to be pitied as a biological unfortunate and treated with nothing but compassion. She can compete with men, or follow the rules like any other MTF transgender wishing to compete as a woman.

Ditto, + 1000

He should not be allowed to run in the female category

4 years ago 07/30/2019 10:06pm EDT

re: frgefdg

Based upon previous comments on the message board, I don't believe that the court in this particular case is supposed to rule on the merits of the underlying issue being disputed, one way or the other. The job of the court is to pass judgement on the arbitration process itself -- to ensure that the arbitration process is fair, to ensure that that the arbitrators are ruling on the merits and not biased towards a specific side, etc. For example, if the arbitrators were being bribed by one side or the other, the court would set aside the arbitration ruling. I am not aware of any evidence indicating that the arbitration process was in some ways flawed, regardless of the decision. Thus the Swiss court was always likely to rule against Semenya in this case.

Perhaps some attorneys could confirm or dispute this.[/quote]

I’m not an attorney but am very familiar with the case. You are essentially correct, but we still must await the final verdict.

4 years ago 07/30/2019 10:17pm EDT

re: tgirl

Wrong. The Swiss Federal Court can also rule on any item that goes against public policy. This has already been seen before.

The CAS decision was appealed to the Swiss Federal Tribunal. In its decision rendered on 27 March 2012, the Swiss Federal Tribunal annulled the CAS decision, as they found the ban on Matuzalém "a severe infringement of [his] right to privacy". The Tribunal also questioned whether the sanction was likely to lead to the payment of the compensation, which was the stated purpose of the ban. The compensation to be paid to Shakhtar was not affected by this case. This remains the only case where a CAS decision has been overturned based on the merits of the case.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matuzal%C3%A9m

4 years ago 07/30/2019 10:34pm EDT

re: Rights matter

Rights matter wrote:
[quote]This remains the only case where a CAS decision has been overturned based on the merits of the case.

Hence the use of the word essentially in my post. I’m happy to place a $100 wager with you on the outcome of the case. I imagine you can find me online since I don’t hide behind anonymity.

4 years ago 07/30/2019 10:36pm EDT

re: IDK.....

IDK..... wrote:
IDK (I don't know): On one hand, I'm sad for Caster, if she was born with too much testosterone to be a female, but not enough to be a male. It's not her fault, and that is really tough. The courts are telling her that she is 'too close' to being male, and so she cannot compete with females. This has got to be really rough.
On the other hand, I'm happy for the millions of females born within 'normal' ranges of hormones to compete against each other, rather than compete against someone who is practically male.
In the not-so-distant-future we will probably see categories set by testosterone levels, rather than by gender.

You’re RIGHT... you DON’T know... anything about this.

She was not just some girl born with high testosterone. She was born A BOY (with XY chromosomes like every other BOY). And her XY chromosomes - while giving her testosterone levels consistent with other boys/men - didn’t (for whatever reason) produce a penis or external testes.

I’m a dude, and I ran a 1:58 in high school. Because this time wasn’t that great for a male runner, I decided not to pursue running much beyond high school. But I’m pretty sure if I decided to make a career out of it - AND CLAIM TO BE FEMALE - I could have run a 1:55, and I could’ve been a world dominating gold medalist too!!! AND HOW WOULD THAT BE FAIR TO WOMEN???

The only people supporting Caster, are those who ignorantly think she’s an XX female who was somehow blessed with high testosterone in the same way that Shaq was blessed with height. She’s NOT... she was born an XY boy without a penis. (Sorry to be explicit, but I think we need to be precise in this discussion.

4 years ago 07/31/2019 12:16am EDT

re: ??????????

4 years ago 07/31/2019 12:39am EDT

re: VoR

What I find astounding is that the same people arguing for her to be able to run also argue strongly for women’s rights. Yet those of us who believe she shouldn’t be allowed to run (against women) are sticking up for the rights of the other 99.9999% women, who deserve a shot to compete for a gold. I can only chalk this up to PC mindlessness....

4 years ago 07/31/2019 12:40am EDT

re: ??????????

worse news is that i will miss the world championship

and you basement dwellers of letsrun, with your 430 mile will miss the champs.

and live the rest of your lives in a basement whining about trivia.

4 years ago 07/31/2019 12:41am EDT

re: Run007xx

Run007xx wrote:
IDK..... wrote:
IDK (I don't know): On one hand, I'm sad for Caster, if she was born with too much testosterone to be a female, but not enough to be a male. It's not her fault, and that is really tough. The courts are telling her that she is 'too close' to being male, and so she cannot compete with females. This has got to be really rough.
On the other hand, I'm happy for the millions of females born within 'normal' ranges of hormones to compete against each other, rather than compete against someone who is practically male.
In the not-so-distant-future we will probably see categories set by testosterone levels, rather than by gender.
You’re RIGHT... you DON’T know... anything about this.
She was not just some girl born with high testosterone. She was born A BOY (with XY chromosomes like every other BOY). And her XY chromosomes - while giving her testosterone levels consistent with other boys/men - didn’t (for whatever reason) produce a penis or external testes.
I’m a dude, and I ran a 1:58 in high school. Because this time wasn’t that great for a male runner, I decided not to pursue running much beyond high school. But I’m pretty sure if I decided to make a career out of it - AND CLAIM TO BE FEMALE - I could have run a 1:55, and I could’ve been a world dominating gold medalist too!!! AND HOW WOULD THAT BE FAIR TO WOMEN???
The only people supporting Caster, are those who ignorantly think she’s an XX female who was somehow blessed with high testosterone in the same way that Shaq was blessed with height. She’s NOT... she was born an XY boy without a penis. (Sorry to be explicit, but I think we need to be precise in this discussion.

Too be crude, maybe some viagra or a penile enlargement/transplant or both because the issue is not whether he is a male, but how much gear he has.

4 years ago 07/31/2019 12:45am EDT

re: ??????????

4 years ago 07/31/2019 12:46am EDT

re: I am Sam

I am Sam wrote:
Too be crude, maybe some viagra or a penile enlargement/transplant or both because the issue is not whether he is a male, but how much gear he has.

(can't edit)...but I mean as opposed to chemical altering (less testosterone) to be a female, why not enhance the male attributes.

But that's not what Caster wants.

He wants to be seen as a 'poor me, not my fault' woman with too much testosterone

4 years ago 07/31/2019 2:35am EDT

re: Run007xx

Run007xx wrote:
IDK..... wrote:
IDK (I don't know): On one hand, I'm sad for Caster, if she was born with too much testosterone to be a female, but not enough to be a male. It's not her fault, and that is really tough. The courts are telling her that she is 'too close' to being male, and so she cannot compete with females. This has got to be really rough.
On the other hand, I'm happy for the millions of females born within 'normal' ranges of hormones to compete against each other, rather than compete against someone who is practically male.
In the not-so-distant-future we will probably see categories set by testosterone levels, rather than by gender.
You’re RIGHT... you DON’T know... anything about this.
She was not just some girl born with high testosterone. She was born A BOY (with XY chromosomes like every other BOY). And her XY chromosomes - while giving her testosterone levels consistent with other boys/men - didn’t (for whatever reason) produce a penis or external testes.
I’m a dude, and I ran a 1:58 in high school. Because this time wasn’t that great for a male runner, I decided not to pursue running much beyond high school. But I’m pretty sure if I decided to make a career out of it - AND CLAIM TO BE FEMALE - I could have run a 1:55, and I could’ve been a world dominating gold medalist too!!! AND HOW WOULD THAT BE FAIR TO WOMEN???
The only people supporting Caster, are those who ignorantly think she’s an XX female who was somehow blessed with high testosterone in the same way that Shaq was blessed with height. She’s NOT... she was born an XY boy without a penis. (Sorry to be explicit, but I think we need to be precise in this discussion.

I think you've got some good points there - and you've made it very clear what your position is.

However, if she was born as a male, and is therefore a male, why is the IAAF forbidding Semenya to run the 800/1500 but it's okay to compete with the females in the 5000 on up? It would seem if she was a biological male then she would not be allowed to compete in any women's events...period. Look how stupid this is: Semenya is too much of a male to be allowed to compete in the 800/1500 but we can watch her/him run around the track for 12 1/2 laps against female competition. Lol.

This is where this issue needs to be settled once and for all by the IAAF. If Semenya is not allowed to compete in the women's 800 & 1500 then be/she shouldn't be allowed to compete in any women's events. If, OTOH, Semenya is allowed to compete against females in the 5000 on up, then she should be allowed to compete in the middle-distances against females as well.

The IAAF needs to get it's act together!

4 years ago 07/31/2019 3:03am EDT

re: KT1

KT1 wrote:
This is great victory for women’s track

Yes finally some good news

4 years ago 07/31/2019 3:51am EDT

re: Subway Surfers

Best news I’ve heard in a long time. Should have have never gotten to this stage in the first place.

Let's Get To The Bottom Of This (once and for all) wrote:
Run007xx wrote:
You’re RIGHT... you DON’T know... anything about this.
She was not just some girl born with high testosterone. She was born A BOY (with XY chromosomes like every other BOY). And her XY chromosomes - while giving her testosterone levels consistent with other boys/men - didn’t (for whatever reason) produce a penis or external testes.
I’m a dude, and I ran a 1:58 in high school. Because this time wasn’t that great for a male runner, I decided not to pursue running much beyond high school. But I’m pretty sure if I decided to make a career out of it - AND CLAIM TO BE FEMALE - I could have run a 1:55, and I could’ve been a world dominating gold medalist too!!! AND HOW WOULD THAT BE FAIR TO WOMEN???
The only people supporting Caster, are those who ignorantly think she’s an XX female who was somehow blessed with high testosterone in the same way that Shaq was blessed with height. She’s NOT... she was born an XY boy without a penis. (Sorry to be explicit, but I think we need to be precise in this discussion.
I think you've got some good points there - and you've made it very clear what your position is.
However, if she was born as a male, and is therefore a male, why is the IAAF forbidding Semenya to run the 800/1500 but it's okay to compete with the females in the 5000 on up? It would seem if she was a biological male then she would not be allowed to compete in any women's events...period. Look how stupid this is: Semenya is too much of a male to be allowed to compete in the 800/1500 but we can watch her/him run around the track for 12 1/2 laps against female competition. Lol.
This is where this issue needs to be settled once and for all by the IAAF. If Semenya is not allowed to compete in the women's 800 & 1500 then be/she shouldn't be allowed to compete in any women's events. If, OTOH, Semenya is allowed to compete against females in the 5000 on up, then she should be allowed to compete in the middle-distances against females as well.
The IAAF needs to get it's act together!

The IAAF wants what you want. It was the CAS ruling that decided it would be for this narrow window of events because they didn't have enough 'evidence' that there was a benefit in long or shorter races.

Common sense dictates that there would be, but I think they needed actual cases of XY DSD athletes competing in these events to be able to rule on a ban.

Guessing if Semenya decides to try and steal money in the 5000 in the future, then we could see an extension of the ruling.

4 years ago 07/31/2019 7:29am EDT

I'm left wing (not liberal, they are right-wingers) and of course I'm smart enough to understand that a intersex person with XY and extremely high testosteron levels shouldn't compete against women. Don't understand how you mix politics into this

4 years ago 07/31/2019 8:17am EDT

re: I am Sam

Once you take the time to understand Caster's condition it's extremely clear what the right choice is here. Below is an article of the opinion of someone else who went through the exact same thing as Caster and he does not think it's right for athlete's like himself or Caster to be competing against women. He also went on to father children, just as Caster can do as well! Think about that, how many women do you know that can father a child?!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mgQ97TKxc8

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6772989/Intersex-skiing-champion-say-transgender-women-NOT-compete-female-events.html

https://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/condition/5-alpha-reductase-deficiency#diagnosis

4 years ago 07/31/2019 8:18am EDT

re: doot doot

doot doot wrote:
team Unruly Bush wrote:
Maybe some people think social justice is more important than running in circles
Why does the pursuit of social justice have to distort, if not outright subvert, women’s professional sports to achieve its goals?
How is this not the tyranny of an extreme minority over half the world’s (potential) athletes?

Because women always come at the bottom of the heap, whatever excuse you use. So in this period of competing liberal-left wing "woke" values, based on arbitrary measurements of discrimination, the subjugation of women as a class is seen as less important to the risk of any harm to a particular race. Women are supposed to give way should there be a slightest risk that a man with some kind of condition impacting on his manhood be slightly disadvantaged in some way (such as having to run against other men).

Women therefore just don't matter to some. The fact that they are, in the main, permitted to move about freely and hold down jobs, is sufficient for any concerns regarding them to be dismissed.

Its only in recent history that women were "allowed" to run in marathons. We don't live in enlightened times.

4 years ago 07/31/2019 8:44am EDT

re: logician

logician wrote:
IDK..... wrote:
IDK (I don't know): On one hand, I'm sad for Caster, if she was born with too much testosterone to be a female, but not enough to be a male. It's not her fault, and that is really tough. The courts are telling her that she is 'too close' to being male, and so she cannot compete with females. This has got to be really rough.
.
The facts: Semenya is an XY male with pitiable external genitalia due to an accident of biology in the womb, a condition called 5-ARD.
Semenya is NOT an "unusual female."
Semenya is an "unfortunate male."
AGAIN, Semenya IS IN NO WAY A FEMALE. She is 100% male, with undeveloped genitals. FULL STOP.
The IAAF failed to get these simple facts to the media--the NYtimes and everyone else painted this as an unusual female with elevated testosterone. The IAAF should have been shouting from the rooftops since 2009 that Semenya is not an "unusual female" but an "unfortunate male." Why they did not take this path--if they knew she was XY 5-ARD-- I can not understand. It led to an unnecessary 10 year loss for true female athletes. This legal battle should have been done in 2010, not 2020.
AGAIN: Semenya is 100% male. She is NOT a female in any biological sense.
A poster a few months ago whose name I can not recall did a great job of researching and presenting her condition of 5-ARD.
The issue is clouded by the SEPARATE issue of MTF transgenders wanting to participate in women's' sport
This does NOT mean Semenya is to be ridiculed or mistreated in any way. She is to be pitied as a biological unfortunate and treated with nothing but compassion. She can compete with men, or follow the rules like any other MTF transgender wishing to compete as a woman.

Well said!!

THANK YOU!

4 years ago 07/31/2019 9:31am EDT

re: Run007xx

Run007xx wrote:
IDK..... wrote:
IDK (I don't know): On one hand, I'm sad for Caster, if she was born with too much testosterone to be a female, but not enough to be a male. It's not her fault, and that is really tough. The courts are telling her that she is 'too close' to being male, and so she cannot compete with females. This has got to be really rough.
On the other hand, I'm happy for the millions of females born within 'normal' ranges of hormones to compete against each other, rather than compete against someone who is practically male.
In the not-so-distant-future we will probably see categories set by testosterone levels, rather than by gender.
You’re RIGHT... you DON’T know... anything about this.
She was not just some girl born with high testosterone. She was born A BOY (with XY chromosomes like every other BOY). And her XY chromosomes - while giving her testosterone levels consistent with other boys/men - didn’t (for whatever reason) produce a penis or external testes.
I’m a dude, and I ran a 1:58 in high school. Because this time wasn’t that great for a male runner, I decided not to pursue running much beyond high school. But I’m pretty sure if I decided to make a career out of it - AND CLAIM TO BE FEMALE - I could have run a 1:55, and I could’ve been a world dominating gold medalist too!!! AND HOW WOULD THAT BE FAIR TO WOMEN???
The only people supporting Caster, are those who ignorantly think she’s an XX female who was somehow blessed with high testosterone in the same way that Shaq was blessed with height. She’s NOT... she was born an XY boy without a penis. (Sorry to be explicit, but I think we need to be precise in this discussion.

It takes more than just claiming to he female to compete against women. Hormone treatment, which would be devastating to a person that does not sincerely want to transgender, is required. The treatment could also add up to 10 seconds to an 800 time.

As far as allowing Semenya to keep competing "as-is", I agree 100% with the position the IAAF has taken.

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