How much work at racepace can you do in one session for each of the distances

Scorpion_runner wrote:

3 x 1 mile @ 5k pace would be tough, but 6 x 1 mile at 10k pace would brutal.

those are basically 92 (10k) - 97 (5k) percent Vo2 max

6x1m at 10k current fitness is pretty much a standard session, with rests between 90" and 2'. You might be surprised that some guys even do 5x2k. Give it a try and forget the numbers. Ditto 3-4x1m, at 5k current pace, with slightly longer recovery

You chat, chat, chat around here but are showing yet again you are pretty much clueless....

I just did 3.5 miles of work at somewhere in between mile and two mile pace. Of course it was super hard and my HR reached 191 (HR range 43-206)

1 mile - 12x400m

With what recovery?

Sustained pace is what makes things difficult. 8x200 @ 800 pace with 60 seconds recovery is difficult but doable (?) but 4x400 with 120 seconds recovery at the same pace well nigh impossible despite total distance and recovery being identical.

12x400 @ mile pace doable; 6x800 @ mile pace very difficult without long recoveries.

Former College Runner, Current Hobby Jogger response:

400m : NA

800m : maybe 2 miles, but never focused in this event

1 mile : 4 miles

3k : 4 miles

5k : 4 miles

10k : 6 miles

Half marathon: 8 miles

Marathon: 10 miles

These are most I've done and would consider them all sensible amounts. I know quite a few runners who have done the 20x400 @ mile race pace, but I'm happy with 12 and maxed out at 16.

Really LR? wrote:

I’m ashamed of all of you. Nobody mentioned 5x18?

C'mon, c'mon. Details! Details!

The biggest marathon pace workout my coach gives his marathoners in the training cycle is 30k at race pace. The first few times he prescribed it for me I thought he was trying to kill me, but I've since come around and think it's a good idea.

It's a big effort for sure, but it's done at a point in the cycle that makes sense. You've built some real fitness and run a bunch of marathon pace at shorter distances, but you're still five weeks away from race day so you have time to recover and adapt. Getting through the workout successfully is a huge confidence boost for race day.

Just some rules of thumb here...

For 400-1500, 2-3x race distance is a reasonable dose for a workout. The total distance would be less with long intervals relative to race distance, and more with short intervals. (I'll list some normal workouts showing this principle).

- Samples for 400:

2x300 = 600.

2x(2x200) = 800.

- Samples for 800:

4x400 = 1600.

3x(4x200) = 2400.

- For 1500:

2x(2x800) = 3200.

10-12x400 = 4000-4800.

For 5,000-10,000, a standard workout is usually going to be around race distance, split different ways. For the 5,000, if using shorter intervals, you might go to more like 1.5x race distance.

Samples:

- 3x1600 = 4800 @5k.

- 5-6x1000 = 5000-6000 @5k.

- 20x400 = 8000 @5k.

- 10x1k = 10k @10k.

For half and full marathon, the pattern persists, with the workout distance as a proportion of the race decreasing further still...

- An at-pace HM workout is going to be less than race distance (e.g. 4x2 or 3x3 miles, say ~2/3 or 3/4 of race distance, or less still, 1/3-1/2 for one longer continuous effort like 4-6 miles at pace).

- With the exception of very specific and carefully applied workouts (true tests), marathon pace workout efforts generally are around half of race distance of pace, though that comes with a lot of +/- depending on the runner/program. 10 miles is a solid marathon pace effort. 18 miles (30k) is very taxing. Note that for the marathon these would often be positioned within a longer effort (e.g. 10 miles steady, 10 at pace = 20). I am just talking about the race-pace part here.

Hope that helps.

Bonham wrote:

The biggest marathon pace workout my coach gives his marathoners in the training cycle is 30k at race pace. The first few times he prescribed it for me I thought he was trying to kill me, but I've since come around and think it's a good idea.

It's a big effort for sure, but it's done at a point in the cycle that makes sense. You've built some real fitness and run a bunch of marathon pace at shorter distances, but you're still five weeks away from race day so you have time to recover and adapt. Getting through the workout successfully is a huge confidence boost for race day.

My standard peaking marathon pace run is 18 miles with 15 at race pace - it’s also usually 4-5 weeks out from a race. It’s a big time effort, but I think it’s invaluauble to get a long pace effort like that in your legs. I used to have issues with calf cramps late in races, and I don’t anymore - I credit the pounding this workout puts into them with prepping them to withstand the effort of the race in the last 10k.

Worth noting that this is pretty straight from the Hansons’ playbook.

Scorpion_runner wrote:

3 x 1 mile @ 5k pace would be tough, but 6 x 1 mile at 10k pace would brutal.

those are basically 92 (10k) - 97 (5k) percent Vo2 max

Isn't 6x1mi @ 10k pace essentially Tinman's CV's? I have done 10 x 1k btwn 8-10k pace w 1min rest numerous times... not super fun, but far from the worst thing I have ever done...

I was more a 3000m type runner, but I could run 3x1 mile at a faster pace - when I was late 30s/40ish - I was running low 16s (about 5:10/5:12 per mile), but could average just on 5:00 per mile for 3x1 mile.

Mid 50s I ran 17:30 (5:36 per mile) and ran 4x1 mile at about that pace as final prep.

I would also do 6x1 mile slightly quicker than 10k race pace - mid 50s, just under 6 min per for the reps, and just over 6 min pace for a 10k.

For years I would do 6x1000m at just a shade quicker than 5k pace (or5x1200m or 3x2000m)

I did discover that genetically, I had a lot of fast-twitch and also cleared lactate quite quickly, so I think I was better runner of reps than races!

It's not how much can you do, but how much should you do, and in what form.

It's useless to design a workout unless you understand which energy systems will be stressed and made to adapt by it. For example, if you are training for 400m, you should dedicate a lot of training to perfecting your start and build up to top speed. That means very short reps, and not very many because your ATP-CP has to be fresh for each rep. Once you're fatigued, the workout ends, otherwise you adapt to the endurance workout it turns into, and end up an endurance athlete trying to sprint. Doesn't work. Always simulate the race.

If you're training for 800 and do a lot of 100m reps, a large portion of those reps involve acceleration, and usually no turns, a poor simulation of "race pace" as it happens for real between 50 and 800 meters. Reps of 150, 200 and 300 are better.

Trevelyan Harper wrote:

I’ve been thinking about a sensible total amount of race pace work one can manage in a single session for all the main distances. It’ll be interesting to see what people chime in with but I’m thinking more standard and commonly used workouts rather than crazy fringe examples of people running 20x400 @ mile race pace or 20 miles @ marathon pace.

Obviously I know amount of rest is a factor and whether it’s active or passive but just for general guidance. Help me amend/complete the following:

400m ?

800m ?

1 mile 12x400m

3k?

5k 3x1 mile

10k 6x1 mile

Half marathon 6-7 Miles?

Marathon 50%?

Just going off anecdotally what I use (NCAA bubble team) and my peers use as well.

800m - 1600m of work

1500 - 3200m of work

3k - 5000m of work

5k- 6000m of work

10k - 8000m-10000m of work

I believe these are optimal volumes. Enough to get a good stimulus, but enough to recover from. Big volume workouts can be done, but they need to be used appropriately within a season. The higher up in race distance you go, the less of a need to go over-distance on workouts. No one really does 13 miles @ half pace or 26 miles @ marathon pace. As the event gets more aerobic, things like threshold running influence your race ability even more. So there is less of a need for big volume race workouts.

Double posting, sorry. A lot of the volume for 3k on up doesn’t seem challenging, but most coaches I know use rest periods that are shorter than the time it takes to run and it is all jogging/easy running. The manipulation of the rest is more important than the volume in my opinion. It makes it more specific to the demands of the race.

For the 800, beside the already mentioned 4 or 5x400 at race pace as a peaking workout, it is not unusual to run 3K at race pace as a 15x200.

800m:

4x400m with 5-6 minutes rest, or 5x300m with 4-5 minutes rest at 800 pace.

400m

A 4x200 at 400 pace would be brutally tough. Not sure I would consider doing that in training.

Scorpion_runner wrote:

3 x 1 mile @ 5k pace would be tough, but 6 x 1 mile at 10k pace would brutal.

those are basically 92 (10k) - 97 (5k) percent Vo2 max

1x6.22 miles at 10k pace would be even harder

Former Sub 14:00 wrote:

Trevelyan Harper wrote:

400m ?

800m ?

1 mile 12x400m

3k?

5k 3x1 mile

10k 6x1 mile

Half marathon 6-7 Miles?

Marathon 50%?

800m - 1600m of work

1500 - 3200m of work

3k - 5000m of work

5k- 6000m of work

10k - 8000m-10000m of work

Pretty much all of the suggestions are averaging around my above rules of thumb:

- 400-800-1500: workout = 2x race distance (longer with short intervals)

- 5000-10000: workout = race distance (longer with short intervals)

- half marathon: workout = 2/3 - 3/4 race distance (shorter if done as just 1-2 long efforts)

- marathon: workout = 1/2 race distance run at race pace, with +/- based on interval type, place in program etc.

Not even tooting my own horn. I'm just interested to see that these hold for fast runners as well as hobbyists like myself.

joalturn wrote:

800m:

4x400m with 5-6 minutes rest, or 5x300m with 4-5 minutes rest at 800 pace.

400m

A 4x200 at 400 pace would be brutally tough. Not sure I would consider doing that in training.

These hit my guide perfectly. For 800, workout = 2x race distance. (I think I suggested up to 3 if you are using short intervals like 200s.)

I agree 4x200 straight @400 would be crushing. I think the the 2x(2x200) I mentioned above would be pretty reasonable specific endurance workout, though. With say 1:00 or 1:30 rep rest and 10 minutes set rest.