200's in 28/29 + 2hr runs.....= slow 5k, why?

male or female

2:30 recovery is a long time for a 200m. Plus that doesn't tell us anything about your 5k ability. I know sprinters who can do that no problem but couldn't run a 5k under 21 mins to save their life.

Tell us what you're hitting your 1ks, 800s, and 400s and how much recovery.

-Soup

The answer can only be that you do not run quick enough in any of your sessions or in the majority of your weekly mileage, if you train slow then you will race slow, long slow runs will only produce a long slow race performance!

You must train at race pace, above race pace and under race pace, thsese are the fundamentals of distance running training.

What can you do 20 200s in with 60s 200m jog recovery?

I think that you need to start training with people who are faster than yourself, if you already dont do that is, do you have a coach or are you self-coached, my coach takes all of my track sessions, and has set split times that I need to hit in order to be on schedule, 8 minute miles is to slow in my opinion to be doing steady state mileage at.

My advice is to find a good training group that will encourage you to get quicker and faster.

65-70 miles a week and a 2hr long run? Gee, I wonder what the problem is?

The problem is the not the lack of training, it is the intensity of which it is performed at, I dont even run 60mpw and I ran sub 15 minute 5km on several occasions during the 2004 track season, you do not need to do a great deal of mileage to run 3.1 miles, but you do need to run high intense sessions and a solid steady state mileage pace to run quick over this distance.

Because you are not training for 5K thats why. It is no surprise at all. Slow runs are fat burning, 200s are primarily lactate, when what you need is high output sugar burning. 5k is 16 minutes of hard running. Where is that focus in your programme.Try to become much more specific to the event in both speed and time for a period.

Try sessions like 15-20x300 with 100 jog, 6-8x1000m off 2 minutes, 3x1200m off 3 minutes. 30x200m with 100 jog, 40-50x100m with 50 jog. Get a focus of one session of long reps and one session of short and relentless intervals each week. Reduce one of your long runs every other week to a hard 8-10miles of long rep fartlek - run 4-8 mins till you have to stop, jog and repeat again and again. Change the other run to 90 mins maximum at the same speed as now and then over the next months run the same course each 2 weeks and get the time down to 75mins.

Try some shorter hard sugar burning runs of 3-5 miles out steady and then the same distance back as hard as you can go. End all steady and slow runs with a fast easy 600-800m to ensure the white muscle is engaged and you become more efficient at running at cruising speed.

race every 400m, 800m, 1500m 3k and 5k you can find and more than one in a day if you can.

Focus the training upon the event, not the event upon your training. What you do is what you are.

Glen

I think that the problem is in a couple things:

1) The pace you're running your mileage is consistent with running 17:40 for 5km. Okay. Start to push it a little -- on your long runs you can startout slow, but start to up the effort some and running hard the last 10min isn't necessarily a bad thing (in fact it can be quite good).

2) Lots of rest in between those 200s. Keep rest to a minimum.

3) Is 17:38 a lifetime PR or are you trying to come back?

Perhaps do some tempo runs, rather than relying on the extremes only (intervals, 2hr run). Try adding a session each week (or replace your intervals every other week) of 20 - 40 minutes steady at a pace 15-25 sec/mile slower than your mile repeat pace.

This will help with the physical and mental staying power that you need in a 5k after the first few minutes.

In the 5k race, try going out about 5 seconds or so slower than goal pace for the first mile, so that you don't drop into slow-down-from-the-gun mode.

Maybe you just aren't super talented. Nothing to be ashamed of. Stick with it and get down in the 16s eventually. You'll still mop up at the local podunk races.

17:38 is a lifetime PR for me (sadly), although I would aruge that I was in better shape (but didn't race) in the late summer of 2004, right before I got a stress fracture and was forced to stop running. Gained about 20lbs and lost about half of that over 2 month's time. I still need to lose about 10lbs, which WILL help, but I would still argue that my times should be faster.

I did tempos in the late winter for about 8 weeks. They were usually in the fashion of 10 mile runs. I would run the first 3 miles easy, then go at it for a bit. I have done the following while on these 10 milers after 3 miles easy:

5k in 18:05

6k, coming through the same 5k mark in 17:55!! (not too hard either...this was before I knew my 5k time and had nothing to base it on.)

7k coming through 5k in 18:05

--I was able to extend the tempos pretty well without losing pace in the least.

I live in the south, so getting on the track early is what we do. The tempos were dropped in favor of repeats. Examples:

3 x 2000 in 7:00, 7:00, 6:45 w/ 5 min jog rec.

4 x mile in 5:45, 5:44, 5:41, 5:28 with lap jog (4 min rec)

5 x 1000 all at or right under 3:20

3 x mile at 5:19, 5:21, 5:21 by myself, no help, 4-5 min rec.

12 miler with 7.5 of it at 6:08 pace (not a track workout, but oh well)

600/300 workout in ~1:54/:53

and the 200 workout mentioned earlier

BTW, I ran 5 x {3x200} (only 15, not 20) in :33/:34 with :30 between reps and a lap jog between sets--for the person who asked how fast I could run 20 x 200.

Thanks thus far. I guess I just need to ride out the rest of the track season and incorporate tempos and increase the pace of easy runs after this season (like in the summer)??

Thanks again.

Hammered wrote:

The answer can only be that you do not run quick enough in any of your sessions or in the majority of your weekly mileage, if you train slow then you will race slow, long slow runs will only produce a long slow race performance!

You must train at race pace, above race pace and under race pace, thsese are the fundamentals of distance running training.

Seriously man, that line is a little too played out. In fact, you are using in when it isn't even applicable. The kid says he does 200'w, 400's, 800's, 1k's, miles, etc. It is obvious he is doing stuff at race pace. The mileage obviously isn't race specific, but it makes you a better runner to do regenrative or steady runs instead of doing intervals everyday. However, you obviously wouldn't advocate doing intervals everyday. He does train faster than race, at race pace, and slower than race pace. Do you think he doesn't do enough interval workouts? If so, where did you get that idea? It certainly didn't come from his post. There certainly are other options. Perhaps he is overtrained. Perhaps he needs too use shorter recoveries. Perhaps he needs more LT work. There is no clear answer.

To run a fast 5K, you need to do 1VO2 workout per week for 6-9 weeks. Bread and butter workout would be 5x1000@5k race pace. Use HR as a gide for when to start your next rep. When it falls under 130, start the next rep. Important you do these workouts at the pace you can run a 5k in at this point. Each 3 weeks, do a 5k time trial, or race. And as things progress move the pace of your reps up. Two days after doing your vo2 work, find a hill that take's about 60 seconds to run. Frist run 10 sec as hard as you can. Then jog back to the bottem allow 2-3 mins for rest and then run Run 10-12 full 60 seconds reps as hard. of these and leg speed should not be a problem.

For a 5k you do need speed, but stammina is more important.

Recoveries are way, way too long IMO. In your 3 X 2000, shoot for like 2:00-2:30 recoveries, assuming this pace isn't all out. I've run 5 X 1000 many times, never averaging under 3:20. But I try to keep my rests an honest 2:00, and even my slow a** has gone sub 17:00 in a 5K. Change your training a bit - you're just about there.

I live in the south, so getting on the track early is what we do. The tempos were dropped in favor of repeats. Examples:

I agree with the people who say your recoveries are unnecessarily long. But I doubt shortening them will make much difference. Your workouts already should put you at under 17:30 -- things like a tempo in just over 18, and a the 5x1000 workout is comparable to what I do and I've run 17:25 on the road. So what does that mean ? For one, you might be able to get a boost just by cutting back the miles and peaking. I think there's a good chance you're already in 17:15-17:25 shape.One workout I'd recommend for 5k times is the Decastella quarters workout where you alternate quarters in about 80 seconds with a fast 200m or 300m float, set up so the total distance is 5k. Stay exactly on pace for the quarters and try to push the pace hard on the floats, then time the whole workout. You'll be able to go under 18 for 5k on this. If you improve much, you'll go under your PR. Another thought -- I disagree with doing your base miles faster. It's just the wrong emphasis. You should be putting that energy into your track workouts instead. The bottom line -- the two reasons that you haven't run faster are (1) you just haven't peaked yet -- maybe you need to bring miles down to get your racing legs back, and (2) you need to be patient. Keep at it and faster times will come your way.

Thanks folks.

I guess I will lower my mileage a bit and see if I can peak for my upcoming races now that the end of my racing season is nearing at the end of the month.

Could someone come up with a solid summer schedule (starting early, like first of May) with appropriate mileage and intensities that will hopefully bring me to a 16:30 by fall?

I'm not calling this season a wash quite yet, but I will be looking to start from scratch once again by the beginning of May.

Thanks for all the replies.

sounds like you need to do 600's 1000's. 200's are for leg turn over, which you have, now you need to carry it over to the 600's. You need staying power. It's a process and may take a few weeks to a month to get it going. Have you ever done a ladder workout? 400, 600, 800 1000, 1000, 800, 600 400. It's intense but will help you and get your time down to under 16:30. If you haven't done it in a workout you can't do it in a race.

Dont lower your mileage..why would you? u will run a better 5k of 70+ miles a week than u wud of 50..its that simple.Stop thinking about running and just do it. Run to how you feel and remember above everything any one has told u here..consistancy is the key. Specificty has been emphasised and this is important. Be sure that your work outs are 5k specific. Injury free and good performance= harmonious inter development of strength speed stamina endurance and recovery through out programme

This encompasses the concept of multi-pace training. Simply training at different paces. Fitness is developed through a number of modalities (running, strength training, mobility) combination changed periodically to meet changing developmental focus

Multi tier training is the organisation of training around several levels, each of which builds on the preceding one. ( base phase) each phase has a different of development (getting fit)

Training is like constructing a multi story building. We need various kinds of building materials( aerobic, anaerobic running, comprehensive conditioning, flexibility) several kinds of materials ( training intensity, modalities) should be used to complete the goal of a finished building- or fit athlete

All the areas need to be targeted – specificity.

Also look at overload. Training imposes a physiological load on the body resulting in fatigue (F) and decrease in maximal performance abilities. Following a training load improvement in performance can only occur with adequate recover (R). This is defined by Yakovlev’s model of super compensation. The reduction of neural fatigue and increased psychological readiness for competition can bring a more extended period of excellent performance- super compensation

Clearly there are a lot of factors in running a good 5k. The main factor i advocate is listen to your body. It knows best, it will tell u what to do and when. Sure structure is good...but following it religiously is not. Aslong as your easy days are easy and ur hard days hard.. u will improve. stick with it and keep running those miles.