Chris Derrick vs Trevor Dunbar

The question is whether he was hypocritical to denounce someone for shifting national loyalties in order to avoid the tough competition and get a guaranteed spot. He shifted college loyalties (going to a rival, sure, but Oregon's a place with many sub 4 runners most years and multiple national champion, so it is very tough to make the travelling squad) to get tougher competition and become a better runner. He also gave himself a much better chance of getting pro support, because Nike supports Oregon alumni. But the competition was much better. Last year at Oregon, there were sub 3:40 guys coming out of the woodwork after nationals, even a non-nationals guy or two beating Cheserek. That team's insanely competitive.

I agree with the guy who said that the IAAF's corruption and the drug scandals involving top athletes are a lot more important than Pappas switching allegiance.

Whether or not the competition is better at Oregon is irrelevant. Trevor transferred schools because it was a prudent career move. Alexi "transferred" nationalities because it was a prudent career move. There really isn't any moral distinction, unless you're one of those dangerously, illogically nationalistic "merica" types. Would any reasonable person get all self-righteous at someone who moved overseas for work? That's pretty much what Trevor's doing, and it's dumb.

Ehh wrote:

Whether or not the competition is better at Oregon is irrelevant. Trevor transferred schools because it was a prudent career move. Alexi "transferred" nationalities because it was a prudent career move. There really isn't any moral distinction, unless you're one of those dangerously, illogically nationalistic "merica" types. Would any reasonable person get all self-righteous at someone who moved overseas for work? That's pretty much what Trevor's doing, and it's dumb.

I agree with this: they both shifted allegiances to improve their prospects. We can argue about whether this is "right" or "wrong", but Dunbar in particular has no right to criticize Pappas, given that he did the same thing (and for those who would say "but it's not the same thing", please explain exactly why one should be loyal to one's country, but not to one's school).

Vilgax wrote:

I agree with this: they both shifted allegiances to improve their prospects. We can argue about whether this is "right" or "wrong", but Dunbar in particular has no right to criticize Pappas, given that he did the same thing (and for those who would say "but it's not the same thing", please explain exactly why one should be loyal to one's country, but not to one's school).

How can you not see a difference between loyalty to a school vs country? Here's a few extremely obvious differences between Dunbar transferring and Pappas switching to run for Greece.

1.) College is something you go to for 4 or 5 years. That's it. Pappas was born a US citizen and has lived in this country her entire life.

2.) College is something you choose, you aren't born into it. Now I know you can transfer citizenship but lets hop to point 3.

3.) After Dunbar transferred he actually went to school at U of O and trained with the U of O team. Is Pappas actually moving to Greece? Has she ever spent an extended period of time there?

4.)For those saying this isn't a patriotism thing, actually it kind of is. You are choosing what country you are representing at a major international event, it matters. America provides opportunity and lifestyle that aren't available to much of the world. Many have sacrificed and given their lives for Americans to have what we do. No one has greatly sacrificed for Trevor's opportunity to go to Portland vs Oregon.

Many transfer colleges for a better fit. If Pappas were actually leaving the US to live in Greece because that was a better fit then representing them at the games would be understandable. But from the articles about there is no real tie between her and Greece other than ancestry and everyone in the US can claim some ancestor came from somewhere that wasn't here at some point.

Ehh wrote:

Whether or not the competition is better at Oregon is irrelevant. Trevor transferred schools because it was a prudent career move. Alexi "transferred" nationalities because it was a prudent career move. There really isn't any moral distinction, unless you're one of those dangerously, illogically nationalistic "merica" types. Would any reasonable person get all self-righteous at someone who moved overseas for work? That's pretty much what Trevor's doing, and it's dumb.

Right it's the same thing. It's just like a sout Korean deciding to skip on over to North Korea. Or a Korean competing for Japan. It ain't no thing and I bet nobody would even care just like an argentine playing soccer for Brazil. It's the exact same thing as a guy transferring to another college. She's just transferring to Greece, minus the transfer part of course ;-)

Dunbar hurt Portland with his transfer, Pappas hurts no one with hers.

Primo Numero Uno wrote:[/

3.) After Dunbar transferred he actually went to school at U of O and trained with the U of O team. Is Pappas actually moving to Greece? Has she ever spent an extended period of time there?

I would also add that Dunbar prolly payed some tuition to the u of o, since it's not like they were lacking in talent across the track and field team. He took a risk and left a team for another team in the same state, which is actually a bit ballsy because if he flops there will be no shortage of embarrassment, and he surely paid to take that risk with no going back.

That's a little different than what Pappas is doing.

Right. So now bailing on your team to go run for their rival is "ballsy".

Subliminal Girth wrote:

Dunbar hurt Portland with his transfer, Pappas hurts no one with hers.

Well now we can get into philosophy about directly and indirectly hurting, but even if we take it at what you said, so what? What sport doesn't lose a terrific team player or member? Of course it affect that team. The graduation of a star runner or player hurts that team.

What people seem to be missing is that is considered part of the game, changing or manipulating nationalities, not so much.

Thong song wrote:

Subliminal Girth wrote:

Dunbar hurt Portland with his transfer, Pappas hurts no one with hers.

Well now we can get into philosophy about directly and indirectly hurting, but even if we take it at what you said, so what? What sport doesn't lose a terrific team player or member? Of course it affect that team. The graduation of a star runner or player hurts that team.

What people seem to be missing is that is considered part of the game, changing or manipulating nationalities, not so much.

Exactly. What people are missing is running at college is largely a business relationship. Yeah you have a special relationship with teammates. But for the coaching staff and the athletics officials this is your career. Choosing to run for a school does not mean the athlete gets an undying commitment from the school. 100's of NCAA athletes get used and then thrown on their ass when they stop being beneficial to their university. Not saying countries are always completely committed to doing right by their citizens but the relationship is very different than a student to a school.

Thong song wrote:

Ehh wrote:

Whether or not the competition is better at Oregon is irrelevant. Trevor transferred schools because it was a prudent career move. Alexi "transferred" nationalities because it was a prudent career move. There really isn't any moral distinction, unless you're one of those dangerously, illogically nationalistic "merica" types. Would any reasonable person get all self-righteous at someone who moved overseas for work? That's pretty much what Trevor's doing, and it's dumb.

Right it's the same thing. It's just like a sout Korean deciding to skip on over to North Korea. Or a Korean competing for Japan. It ain't no thing and I bet nobody would even care just like an argentine playing soccer for Brazil. It's the exact same thing as a guy transferring to another college. She's just transferring to Greece, minus the transfer part of course ;-)

I can guarantee you that there are people who take college rivalries every bit as seriously as any international rivalry. For example, have you ever met an Alabama football fan? Those people are ferociously tribal. There is real hatred in their rivalries. It's a bit scary. And it's driven by exactly the same instinct that makes Brazilians hate Argentineans or Americans hate Soviets. It's really not different.

...and my point stands unscathed.Dunbar v. Pappas is apples to oranges, Dunbar didn't think it through. Both are LEGALLY using the rules to their on benefit, as they should see fit. Making a living as a pro runner is tough, they have to be smart and adaptable. Personally I see Lagat's 2004 shenanigans as much more dubious, dishonest even. But since he was faster than Dunbar or anyone else and is a nice guy he gets a bye.

Thong song wrote:

Subliminal Girth wrote:

Dunbar hurt Portland with his transfer, Pappas hurts no one with hers.

Well now we can get into philosophy about directly and indirectly hurting, but even if we take it at what you said, so what? What sport doesn't lose a terrific team player or member? Of course it affect that team. The graduation of a star runner or player hurts that team.

What people seem to be missing is that is considered part of the game, changing or manipulating nationalities, not so much.

Ehh wrote:

Thong song wrote:

Right it's the same thing. It's just like a sout Korean deciding to skip on over to North Korea. Or a Korean competing for Japan. It ain't no thing and I bet nobody would even care just like an argentine playing soccer for Brazil. It's the exact same thing as a guy transferring to another college. She's just transferring to Greece, minus the transfer part of course ;-)

I can guarantee you that there are people who take college rivalries every bit as seriously as any international rivalry. For example, have you ever met an Alabama football fan? Those people are ferociously tribal. There is real hatred in their rivalries. It's a bit scary. And it's driven by exactly the same instinct that makes Brazilians hate Argentineans or Americans hate Soviets. It's really not different.

I don't think it's the similarities that are the topic of discussion it's the differences. You've drawn undeniable similarities, but the differences have been pointed out over and over. You don't think European soccer club fans are maniacal? Doesn't stop players from leaving or being traded constantly. But that doesn't mean Dani Alvez is going to play for Argentina at the World Cup because the defensive spot ease easier to claim than in Brazil. Ronaldo may go from Manchester United to Real Madrid for money and to be part of a better team, but he won't be leaving Portugal for Netherlands or Argentia for a shot at the World Cup title. See the difference?

You probably missed the last sentence regarding nationalities. But yeah Lagat was shady on that. That being said, I've heard of corrupt politics in the Kenyan team selection, now that is a GOOD reason to seek another nationality, to escape an unjust system and pledge allegiance to another nationality that you believe in and that offers a fair trials system. There are a lot of immigrants in this country who would echo that sentiment and THAT is precisely why nationality does have value. Being a nationalistic moron is one thing, but having pride in what your country stands for and offers is a good thing. Whether your country is big or small, a powerhouse or not.

Bump

This is so boring, I am going back to watching porn.

This. period.

Primo Numero Uno wrote:

Exactly. What people are missing is running at college is largely a business relationship. Yeah you have a special relationship with teammates. But for the coaching staff and the athletics officials this is your career. Choosing to run for a school does not mean the athlete gets an undying commitment from the school. 100's of NCAA athletes get used and then thrown on their ass when they stop being beneficial to their university. Not saying countries are always completely committed to doing right by their citizens but the relationship is very different than a student to a school.