RE: If you believe in the concept of Performance Enhancing Drugs......

Jon Orange wrote:

dope works wrote:

So now genetics DO matter?

You are still in denial about training of ALL of those factors that your sources mention.

For the thousandth time not agreeing is not trolling.

Did you really expect to make your one statement and then have a 1000 guys nodding and saying "yep that's right"?

No, you're missing the point over and over and over. You must be doing this deliberately?

You have failed to prove it. Still.

test2 wrote:

Jon Orange wrote:

Yes.

Okay.

Does the following sum up your model:

1) fractional utilization can be trained up to the generic curve in Daniels' Running formula.

2) absolute VO2max is genetic and fixed.

3) relative VO2max can be improved but only by cutting weight

4) once you have optimized (1) and (3) through training, economy remains as the sole remaining means of improvement

Yes to 2, and 3. I don't know which Daniels curve you are refering to in point 1?

For point 4, the adaptions we seek from training are things such as increased heart stroke volume which comes from increased plasma volume and is easily trainable. It improves endurance and nervous system response to training and racing.

Aside from these metabolic changes which are easily and quikcly gained, improving economy(aerobic efficiency) and overall effcicieny (including the anaerobic components) takes much longer and in running it involves learning (yes, although some posters will deny it, we actually have to use our brains to run) to control the power generated throgh the feet ankles and achilles tendon and up through the kinetic chain. This allows greater use of elastic energy return, which is free energy. The greater reliance on free energy reduces metabolic cost of running. This allows faster racing with less energy expended and thus better recovery.

That is obviously a simplified model for the purpose of this post.

dope works wrote:

Jon Orange wrote:

No, wrong again. The flat footed guys still have to increase stride length/stride rate. Power from other muscles can only follow what happens from below. More elastic energy return = better effciency/economy = less energy used to race and faster times.

No. Power starts from the top. Put walking casts on and try to run. Still possible.

Lock your upper legs, not so much.

The lower legs are just incidental sources of power and elasticity. That's why better running animals don't even have muscles in those areas. All of their power is up top.

It's like you don't even know how running works..

Your knowledge of biomechanics is laughable. Lay off the weed man.

Jon Orange wrote:

dope works wrote:

Can you not just produce more power from the hips and upper legs and move them faster?

Of course you can. That's how the flat footed guys improve.

You're doing your one dimensional solution thing again.

No, wrong again. The flat footed guys still have to increase stride length/stride rate. Power from other muscles can only follow what happens from below. More elastic energy return = better effciency/economy = less energy used to race and faster times.

Does increased stride length and rate not increase the rate fuel is burned?

Which muscles and tendons provide the most elastic recoil?

Jon Orange wrote:

and in running it involves learning (yes, although some posters will deny it, we actually have to use our brains to run) to control the power generated throgh the feet ankles and achilles tendon and up through the kinetic chain. .

Can you give some examples of this at the molecular level.

Jon Orange wrote:

test2 wrote:

Okay.

Does the following sum up your model:

1) fractional utilization can be trained up to the generic curve in Daniels' Running formula.

2) absolute VO2max is genetic and fixed.

3) relative VO2max can be improved but only by cutting weight

4) once you have optimized (1) and (3) through training, economy remains as the sole remaining means of improvement

Yes to 2, and 3. I don't know which Daniels curve you are refering to in point 1?

Figure 2 in

I am going to put JO's Running Economy to the test.

I will be doing barefoot/minimalist runs several times a week. Some, I will be doing on hills, working on "springing". Some, I will be doing with a HR strap, making sure to keep my HR below 70% of max.

I will let you all know how it goes.

I believe Jon Orange. I HAVE to...because my genetics suck.

Jon Orange wrote:

dope works wrote:

No. Power starts from the top. Put walking casts on and try to run. Still possible.

Lock your upper legs, not so much.

The lower legs are just incidental sources of power and elasticity. That's why better running animals don't even have muscles in those areas. All of their power is up top.

It's like you don't even know how running works..

Your knowledge of biomechanics is laughable. Lay off the weed man.

So is the calf and Achilles the first thing or the last thing in the chain of actions?

Running 101 wrote:

Jon Orange wrote:

No, wrong again. The flat footed guys still have to increase stride length/stride rate. Power from other muscles can only follow what happens from below. More elastic energy return = better effciency/economy = less energy used to race and faster times.

Does increased stride length and rate not increase the rate fuel is burned?

Which muscles and tendons provide the most elastic recoil?

The point is to learn to use more elastic recoil to either go faster for the same amount of energy use less energy at a given pace. The achilles tendon is the most elastic, but all of the skeletal muscles use elastic energy return. Think of throwing a stone as far as you can. You use almost every skeletal muscle in your entire body to create waves of elastic movement to prople that stone. With practise you throw further and your arms don't get sore. Same thing with running, your movements become bigger, but you can run long and fast without getting sore legs.

I believe Jon Orange wrote:

I am going to put JO's Running Economy to the test.

I will be doing barefoot/minimalist runs several times a week. Some, I will be doing on hills, working on "springing". Some, I will be doing with a HR strap, making sure to keep my HR below 70% of max.

I will let you all know how it goes.

I believe Jon Orange. I HAVE to...because my genetics suck.

Why would you think that your genetics suck?

I agree with the idea of keeping heart rate down, but not to a specific number, just go as you feel. Do what the East African runners do, start very slowly, trying to run as effcicienly as possible at little more than walking pace and gradually speed up, but keeping that efficient feel, using the feet/ankles/achilles more fully, a bigger range of motion.

Running 101 wrote:

Jon Orange wrote:

Your knowledge of biomechanics is laughable. Lay off the weed man.

So is the calf and Achilles the first thing or the last thing in the chain of actions?

There isn't really a first or last movement, they all work together. But to gain a longer faster stride, your feet are the body parts that need most conditioning work, becasue the range of movements in the feet are so much more variable than other parts of the kinetic chain, and the hardest to control and train. And when those movements become awkward, other muscles and joints get strained too. I don't think I should even begin to try and explain how much work the feet do, you can work that out for yourself.

Jon Orange wrote:

Running 101 wrote:

Does increased stride length and rate not increase the rate fuel is burned?

Which muscles and tendons provide the most elastic recoil?

The point is to learn to use more elastic recoil to either go faster for the same amount of energy use less energy at a given pace. The achilles tendon is the most elastic, but all of the skeletal muscles use elastic energy return. Think of throwing a stone as far as you can. You use almost every skeletal muscle in your entire body to create waves of elastic movement to prople that stone. With practise you throw further and your arms don't get sore. Same thing with running, your movements become bigger, but you can run long and fast without getting sore legs.

Wishful thinking. You have to advance the leg faster to get it into position to harness lower leg elasticity.

Jon Orange wrote:

Running 101 wrote:

So is the calf and Achilles the first thing or the last thing in the chain of actions?

There isn't really a first or last movement, they all work together. But to gain a longer faster stride, your feet are the body parts that need most conditioning work, becasue the range of movements in the feet are so much more variable than other parts of the kinetic chain, and the hardest to control and train. And when those movements become awkward, other muscles and joints get strained too. I don't think I should even begin to try and explain how much work the feet do, you can work that out for yourself.

Once again that small factor that you are blowing out of proportion. Your foot strength etc. is not your leg speed potential.

fred wrote:

Jon Orange wrote:

and in running it involves learning (yes, although some posters will deny it, we actually have to use our brains to run) to control the power generated throgh the feet ankles and achilles tendon and up through the kinetic chain. .

Can you give some examples of this at the molecular level.

Molecular level? What? Can you ask a more nonsensical question?

You want me to describe every molecule involved in neuromotor skills?

Why do you ask such ridiculously pretentious questions?

Running 101 wrote:

Jon Orange wrote:

The point is to learn to use more elastic recoil to either go faster for the same amount of energy use less energy at a given pace. The achilles tendon is the most elastic, but all of the skeletal muscles use elastic energy return. Think of throwing a stone as far as you can. You use almost every skeletal muscle in your entire body to create waves of elastic movement to prople that stone. With practise you throw further and your arms don't get sore. Same thing with running, your movements become bigger, but you can run long and fast without getting sore legs.

Wishful thinking. You have to advance the leg faster to get it into position to harness lower leg elasticity.

How very profound.

Running 101 wrote:

Jon Orange wrote:

There isn't really a first or last movement, they all work together. But to gain a longer faster stride, your feet are the body parts that need most conditioning work, becasue the range of movements in the feet are so much more variable than other parts of the kinetic chain, and the hardest to control and train. And when those movements become awkward, other muscles and joints get strained too. I don't think I should even begin to try and explain how much work the feet do, you can work that out for yourself.

Once again that small factor that you are blowing out of proportion. Your foot strength etc. is not your leg speed potential.

So you can stride like a Kenyan?

Jon Orange wrote:

Running 101 wrote:

Once again that small factor that you are blowing out of proportion. Your foot strength etc. is not your leg speed potential.

So you can stride like a Kenyan?

As a matter of fact I can but not for as long or as fast because of the dozens of other factors.

Jon Orange wrote:

Running 101 wrote:

So is the calf and Achilles the first thing or the last thing in the chain of actions?

There isn't really a first or last movement, they all work together. But to gain a longer faster stride, your feet are the body parts that need most conditioning work, becasue the range of movements in the feet are so much more variable than other parts of the kinetic chain, and the hardest to control and train. And when those movements become awkward, other muscles and joints get strained too. I don't think I should even begin to try and explain how much work the feet do, you can work that out for yourself.

You just said the other muscles follow what happens from below therefore those below portions must be the start.

Jon Orange wrote:

Running 101 wrote:

Wishful thinking. You have to advance the leg faster to get it into position to harness lower leg elasticity.

How very profound.

Only if you don't think deeply.