What exactly is the justification for Asiatic Exclusion at the Admissions Dept of Stanford Ivy USC Caltech?

I find this fetish for an, "Ivy League Education" to be extremely narrow and dispiriting. As if a whole generation of parents have bought into the narrow branding exercise being sold to them by these schools.

In the end, it seems nobody is really looking at outcomes. Are these children happier at these schools? Do they learn more? Are the more productive in their chosen fields? Is their divorce rate lower? Are they healthier? None of these questions are asked, which is very concerning.

There are so many avenues to success and gratification in the developed world, and I don't really understand why families would choose the most crowded (and expensive) route for an equally uncertain outcome.

Just walk on the campus or sit in the libarary at Prin, Stan, Calt, SC, Harv, Yale and it's so obvious that a tremendous shell game is going designed specifially to deny access to Far Eastern Asian Americans and Far Eastern Asian foreigners.

Race Walker wrote:

Just walk on the campus or sit in the libarary at Prin, Stan, Calt, SC, Harv, Yale and it's so obvious that a tremendous shell game is going designed specifially to deny access to Far Eastern Asian Americans and Far Eastern Asian foreigners.

What happens in the library? Everyone is doing 8-balls and tequila shots?

Deny them access to what? There are innumerable options, and an Ivy league school is one of dozens of choices.

As the article said, entrance to these schools is and always has been corrupt. So why bother?

Here's a study from Princeton the details the extent to which members of certain groups lose and benefit from admissions procedures at different universities:

https://www.princeton.edu/~tje/files/webAdmission%20Preferences%20Espenshade%20Chung%20Walling%20Dec%202004.pdf

"Being African American instead of white is worth an average

of 230 additional SAT points on a 1600-point scale, but recruited athletes

reap an advantage equivalent to 200 SAT points. Other things equal, Hispanic

applicants gain the equivalent of 185 points, which is only slightly more

than the legacy advantage, which is worth 160 points. Coming from an Asian background, however, is comparable to the loss of 50 SAT points."

So the phenomenon is real. Preferences differ across universities, as do what admissions boards are trying to maximize (e.g., racial balance, average test scores, etc.)

Good luck on anyone trying to guess what happens at any specific elite school without knowing their admissions criteria. That's a fools errand.

Could Asians just lie about their race on the SAT/during the application process?

Is an interview mandatory?

Or is it more difficult than that?

[quote]erik wrote:

Erik, will you please ban Randy

Tony 234 wrote:

Could Asians just lie about their race on the SAT/during the application process?

Is an interview mandatory?

Or is it more difficult than that?

What the eff is an Asian? Is it everywhere east of Greece? That's 4 Billion people.

erik wrote:

Here's a study from Princeton the details the extent to which members of certain groups lose and benefit from admissions procedures at different universities:

https://www.princeton.edu/~tje/files/webAdmission%20Preferences%20Espenshade%20Chung%20Walling%20Dec%202004.pdf

"Being African American instead of white is worth an average

of 230 additional SAT points on a 1600-point scale, but recruited athletes

reap an advantage equivalent to 200 SAT points. Other things equal, Hispanic

applicants gain the equivalent of 185 points, which is only slightly more

than the legacy advantage, which is worth 160 points. Coming from an Asian background, however, is comparable to the loss of 50 SAT points."

So the phenomenon is real. Preferences differ across universities, as do what admissions boards are trying to maximize (e.g., racial balance, average test scores, etc.)

Good luck on anyone trying to guess what happens at any specific elite school without knowing their admissions criteria. That's a fools errand.

Does the study find out how many SAT points being a good squash player gets you? Crew? Tennis? Polo? How about having a congressman as your parent? Having a parent who can build a new athletic complex for the university?

highprice wrote:

Does the study find out how many SAT points being a good squash player gets you? Crew? Tennis? Polo? How about having a congressman as your parent? Having a parent who can build a new athletic complex for the university?

There is a premium for sailing, squash and lacrosse. There was this article about, "the language of leisure" and it said basically that what sets the 0.1% apart is what they do with their free time. This is a language you learn, and there is a strong preference at elite schools for those students who speak this vernacular and have families which can contribute to the endowment.

The linked article on page 1 also pointed to many cases where parents paid (bribed) their kids way into a school with $2.5mm. This would never happen even in China - parents would go berserk. But at Harvard, it is no problem despite the fact that Harvard's endowment is $40bn and earns $7mm/day, and therefore $2.5mm has a trivial impact on the financial condition of the school. It is really to reinforce the culture of bribery and exclusion.

It might not have always been this way. At my fancy pants elite high school, one guy a year behind me got president Ronald Reagan to write him a recommendation letter to Harvard. He did not get in. I am not so sure that would be the case now.

Mr. Obvious wrote:

[quote]erik wrote:

Erik, will you please ban Randy

Indeed. Letsrun, please ban Randy Miyazaki.

Tony 234 wrote:

Could Asians just lie about their race on the SAT/during the application process?

Is an interview mandatory?

Or is it more difficult than that?

How can you lie about your Asian race with a last name like Kovacs, Wong, Kowalski, Kim, or Abdullah.

sorry to say it but it is kinda of a cultural thing in China to copy what others do without having much creativity.

Centuries ago, China would elect an emperor based on how well the recited a gazillion characters. The top score won. This culture is still somewhat ingrained.

Thus, while work ethic is strong, the level of creativity is often lower when compared to those from other cultures who have lived a life outside of studying and staying at home.

Of course, these are all very broad generalizations, but I have seen my share of very boring cookie cutter applications (good scores, played a musical instrument, sheltered existence), enough to know that SAT isn't everything.

Confused rice eater wrote:

Tony 234 wrote:

Could Asians just lie about their race on the SAT/during the application process?

Is an interview mandatory?

Or is it more difficult than that?

What the eff is an Asian? Is it everywhere east of Greece? That's 4 Billion people.

I've been wondering a similar thing for a few decades, now. Pretty sure the answer starts with political and end with correctness. I grew up in the 70s and 80s and the word "Oriental" was fine (and very roughly, south of Russia and east of India). At some point in the 90s, I guess, someone decided that that was bad. And EVERYONE seems to have agreed.

First off, as you point out, it's amazingly unhelpful - "Everyone from the eastern shores of the Red Sea to the western shores of the North Pacific Ocean." Middle East, the Stans, India, SE Asia, China.... Ridiculous. Second, I've still never heard what was bad about the word Oriental?

I guess I should have or will Google it some time....and learn of what will likely be a thoroughly unpersuasive argument, probably emanating from somewhere in academia.

In Western Europe, Russians and Poles are thought of as Asians. Yet in the United States they are thought of as White.

The culture of Ivy League schools is one of corruption and entitlement. Harvard will take a bribe because that reinforces the underlying ethos of the brand. They won't take a bribe from anyone - otherwise they would be flooded with Chinese bribes. But if you come from a background that they consider acceptable, they will take your bribe.

30 years ago when I was in high school, a connection to POTUS did not get a guy into Harvard who is now a Federal Court of Appeals judge, probably because connections to government were not that lucrative. Now they are, so a rec like this would work because of a closer connection to a culture of money.

My $0,02. Make sense?

Can you imagine if the NBA or NFL started quotas for Asian players?!!

What is wrong with accepting that Asians score 140 points higher than Whites on the SAT, and Whites score 340 points higher than African Americans?

Who cares why?

Bottom line is unless we want 100% Asian classes at top Universities there HAS to be reverse discrimination.

Same thing if we want white centers under 6'5" in the NBA.

Or hey, why not start a NCAA Clydesdale championship in cross?

Ban the Irish from the beer mile records...

The best thing about this whole argument is what a liberal paradox it is.

It doesn't have to be.

There are more African American cornerbacks in the SEC (is there a White one?), great! Let's celebrate our differences!

But Whitey can't do that because it would mean no more Ivy league except for a few Aspie freaks...boo hoo...

BTW I think USC will still take you Asians, as long as you have enough money!

Junk Master wrote:

Can you imagine if the NBA or NFL started quotas for Asian players?!!

What is wrong with accepting that Asians score 140 points higher than Whites on the SAT, and Whites score 340 points higher than African Americans?

Who cares why?

Bottom line is unless we want 100% Asian classes at top Universities there HAS to be reverse discrimination.

Same thing if we want white centers under 6'5" in the NBA.

Or hey, why not start a NCAA Clydesdale championship in cross?

Ban the Irish from the beer mile records...

The best thing about this whole argument is what a liberal paradox it is.

It doesn't have to be.

There are more African American cornerbacks in the SEC (is there a White one?), great! Let's celebrate our differences!

But Whitey can't do that because it would mean no more Ivy league except for a few Aspie freaks...boo hoo...

I'm not a racist. Some of my best friends are minorities. But personally I feel uncomfortable at the restaurants, lounges, and bars of the Official Meet Hotels with so many blacks, browns, and orientals around. I would like for meet directors to place those types of people in a different hotel and least 1 Km away for the safety of White athletes.

No, that's a separate issue. You clearly have low testosterone and need TRT. Heck, might as well get a little thyroid while you're at it.