Do you think I can run a ~ 3:05 marathon based on this training?

So slogging through some 8:30 pace 5 milers (M/W/F) would work better?

Sub 3 Hopeful wrote:

1 hour Vinyasa Yoga on Tue/Thu/Fri ?

Because you said Vinyasa Yoga I will give you 3:03.

If you had said any other type, 3:06.

HMArunner wrote:

I've run 3:05, 3:08, 3:03, 2:54 Boston, 3:09, 2:58 Boston off of 3 days per week schedule.

Sunday 18-26 miler

Tuesday 8-10 miles of track work

Thursday 8-12 miles (tempo or hilly route)

Excellent training if you just want to train 3 days per week.

Man Overboard wrote:

I'd worry that your lack of true long runs will bite you in the ass come race day. I understand your reasoning for not wanting to do them because you've had bad experiences in the past, but guess what your achilllies heel will be come race day...your body won't be able to handle those last few miles because you haven't trained it to do so.

Otherwise, your training looks absolutely stellar for racing in the 10 miles/half marathon range. Those tempo runs indicate much faster than 3:05 if you can build the endurance.

I'm the OP --- thanks and I appreciate your honest advice, which is probably very true. My past experience with marathons taught me that overall volume is key, and that adding longer runs will absolutely. I want to strike the right balance between getting to the start line injury free (#1) and running as fast as I can given the limited volume. I ran 3:16 with two 16-milers only, for this next one I'd like to up it a bit. Perhaps I go to 18, 19 at 7:30 pace? Perhaps 20, which would be 2.5 hours.

When I can approach 3 hour shape (not now...), there is no doubt I'll need to keep the speed and be able to run 20+ milers in training, I think.

ukathleticscoach wrote:

'- I do not want to race a half before marathon, as I take too long to recover from all out. I think I could run 1:25 or slightly under.'

As you are so sure of what you are doing why ask for advice

When I ran 1:26 half it was in the rain and on a hilly road race, and my currents PRs were 38:45 10k and 24:55 4mi in the same year.

That's why I estimated 1:25 half now, based on a 37:59 10k and 24:15 4mi this year before I even started the training I described above. On a flat course I could run 1:24:xx and the reason I am not doing it is that I don't care at all about the half. I have only run 3 halfs in my life and it was never an issue to progress.

The marathon is another beast. As the previous commenter noted, my training is good for the half but not great for the full, and I want to improve by slightly making changes and not getting hurt, so one day I can run sub 3. I can't just go out and run 80mpw and 24mi long runs, especially since I travel for work 40% of my time (100,000+ mi and redeyes...first world problem)

iuIH349Y8^#%* wrote:

"Otherwise, your training looks absolutely stellar for racing in the 10 miles/half marathon range."

This. Tell us more about how you ran your 3:16 at NYC.

Back in 2013 I started running every day. I held a 400+ day streak before I sprained an ankle on a business trip. This is the year I ran 3:16 NY. The training was much less intense than this year. I ran the same type of schedule, usually progressive tempo runs on Tue/Thu, trail Sat and long run Sunday.

My longest run was 16 done twice at 7:30 pace. I ran 14 at 7:15, 12 at 7:04 a couple of times. The peak mileage was 52, with two non consecutive weeks at > 50. Overall mileage for the year was 35 mpw but last 3-4 months before the marathon more like 40-45.

On race day I split the half in 1:34 and 1:42 second half. Might seem terrible but NY second half is much harder. First 15 miles were 7:10 or faster with a couple 6:55s (6 miles). In retrospect that was crazy. Miles 16-19 slower after Queensboro bridge, but still okay around 7:15-7:30. Miles 20-22 around 7:45, and miles 23 to end at 8:00, 8:30, 8:05, 8:20. I did not stop and cramp bad like in first two marathons, but slowed down because left hammy was on the verge of spasm (when it'd tweak i'd be careful). I was not tired though, didn't hit an energy wall, but muscles were done.

Again this was on lower volume, and on difficult course with uphills in second half. That was my 3:16 and I was very happy, even though my 1:26 half should lead to better. Next marathon is fast and flat...for a change.

somebloke wrote:

justsomeguy345 wrote:

The only thing missing is a long run. You should run 20+ miles every 10 days, with your last long run taking place about 2 weeks before race day.

Do that and, yes, I think you can get close to 3:05.

OP doesn't seem to have built up to that sort of LR. Maybe going a bit above 16 is what he should do, save the longer LRs for next cycle and do a proper build up then.

OP: I would also advise against doing LRs at MP. You have the speed for a sub3, you don't have the endurance. No need to run 14+ at MP, this is the type of workout that would benefit someone with a highly developed aerobic house. Yours is not. Think multi cycle.

Thank you for these thoughts --- probably a very reasonable way to go. Maybe I stop doing my hard MP runs and keep that last 15 @ 6:59 on the shelf and continue with:

- two 16s @ 7:30 avg (two hours steady, or progressive) and:

- one 18 also around 7:30 avg (two hours 15 maybe with last x miles @ 7:00)

- and then mayybe a single 20 miler, not too slow (so I don't break form and slog) but not faster than 7:30 overall again

That's 4 more long runs. I have 52 more days which means I can leave ~ 10 days between each, with the 20 miler about 10 days before the race (I did better with 10 days taper than 3 weeks)...is 10 days too short? I am traveling the weekend of race day minus 14/15 days, and should be recovered in 10 days, yet still "primed" no?

YES you can do it but find a late fall flat race, colder is better. a small race where you don't have to be AT the race till 1 hour before.

I'm racing Erie, the cap is 2500 people and it's pancake flat with trees for shade

forget NY a for fast mara Bro.

Bruce LeeRoy wrote:

YES you can do it but find a late fall flat race, colder is better. a small race where you don't have to be AT the race till 1 hour before.

I'm racing Erie, the cap is 2500 people and it's pancake flat with trees for shade

forget NY a for fast mara Bro.

Thanks man --- no NY this time. Done it 3 times and in peace with it. I chose Frankfurt, Germany on 10/25 but have yet to register. Flat, fast and cold (40s). It's also easy to get in and wake up 2 hours before of the race at most.

(there are other reasons that bring me to the area at that time, hence the seemingly odd choice)

I do want a "fair" course. No point to point, no downhill. I failed to locate such a course near my home (NY) other than the Hamptons which is too early (Sep 26), or maybe Philly if I want more time (Nov).

Part of me says I should also forget the marathon altogether until I can give it a fair shot and really try for sub 3. As many of you already alluded to, it will not happen until I up the volume over multiple cycles, so the counterargument is that this next one on a fair course could be a nice test or gauge of where I am. To learn and live.

Sub 3 Hopeful wrote:

Part of me says I should also forget the marathon altogether until I can give it a fair shot and really try for sub 3. As many of you already alluded to, it will not happen until I up the volume over multiple cycles, so the counterargument is that this next one on a fair course could be a nice test or gauge of where I am. To learn and live.

or, you could wait until late winter/early spring to do a marathon and go for sub 3. you'd probably be close to 7min pace this fall, but if you do a half marathon SERIOUSLY this fall and then train for a marathon, i think you may get 2:59.

or, you can run one this fall, run low 3:00s, and once you've sniffed the 2:59 you'll be coming back for more. soon.

I think you're on the right track but I think you're more likely to run 3:10-3:20 this Fall. You need more intelligence in your training. More long runs, more track work.

Join a running club.

Short update, two weeks later: last week was my highest week (62 miles) which included a 16 miles progressive run (only last 4 sub 7:00), a 11 miler with 6 @ 6:54), a 10 mile trail run and a mind boggling 3 x 10' session at 6:08, 6:08, 6:06 with 2' rest in between (10.5 miles total).

What kind of half marathon pace could this indicate??? I was very suprised, and may have run too fast though it felt "good".

This week I traveled intensely (redeye, long days) and was scheduled for my first 18 miler of this cycle today...but something flared up real bad yesterday AFTER a 8 mile trail run and 1 hour yoga class. Didn't feel anything until 3-4 hours after, and now I can't even lift my right thigh. It's either a pulled thigh muscle or something real bad.

Marathon which is 5 weeks away (and any running) might have to wait...now I am left with "what ifs" when i looked at that awesome workout a week ago. FML. Sorry for the rant.

I'm the OP. This is an old thread. That year I ended up scrapping the marathon...the injury was a calcific tendonitis of the rectus femoris tendon. Those calcium deposits need to be reabsorbed and I healed nicely via PRP.

The very next year (2016) I lost some more weight, ran more consistent mileage (peak 60-65 mpw) over a long training block with a few longer long runs (16-20 with half at MP) and ended up running 2:56.

To this day it's still my PR. Ran another sub 3 (barely) at Boston 2018 and then a 1:20 half in 2019. In 2021 I got another calcium deposit (other leg, hamstring) and then became a bit disinterested in running.

Did small comeback in 2023, running a 3:03 fall marathon. I'm reading older threads to see what worked / what did not. Hoping to run again sub 3...in my 40s this time. Again, focusing on losing some fat, running consistent mileage and some strength/hip/glutes workout are all very helpful.

So is proper training and pacing. I found out most of marathons ended up 15 seconds at most faster than my fastest long runs. Miracles don't happen on race day. It's all about the training. My PR felt like a simple "execution" of the plan. Good luck to you all!

Awesone effort!

How did you get those calcium deposits diagnosed?

Thanks for the update, I was waiting for it for the last 8 years.

Can't wait to hear what you did in your 40ies in 2033.

You see them on X-ray. They probably exist for a while, asymptomatic, and one day start getting reabsorbed and create unusual pain. Excruciating, yet unexplainable. Could not move the limb.

As noted first one was right rectus femoris tendon, second one top of left hamstring. Typically, they occur in shoulders and my mother has had those, so I guess there is a generic component.

The good news is that depite how painful they are, once healed you don't hear any more about it (PRP helped speed it up though). Took 6+ weeks each time, as the PRP injection is considered minor surgery.

I always come back for an update. Joke aside, it's good to check back and see what was wrong or right. What I'd advise to anyone now (and was too young to understand before) is that mileage matters most for the 'thon.

50 is bare minimum and 60+ helps a ton if time (not just finishing) is the goal. Sorry to bother you with that update!

*genetic not generic, smh

my.clevelandclinic.org

Calcific Tendonitis: Symptoms, Causes, & Treatment

@ClevelandClinic

Calcific tendonitis is characterized by a buildup of calcium deposits in your tendons. This can occur anywhere, but most people develop it in their shoulder.

Link:my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diseases...

Weird they call it tendonitis though, as it's very local and rest of tendon is unaffected. Usually doctors will ask to rest for a while after PRP, since the tendon is weakened. I also don't think it has anything to do with diet.

Second time I got one, I knew before the Doctor. He ordered the X-ray, then said: "Yep, that is exactly right" and sent me to a specialist who does PRP all day. Very thankful for HSS (NY).

What do you mean by "most of marathons ended up 15 seconds at most faster than my fastest long runs" ?