I take it we aren't including 800 meter runners, because if we aren't Michael Granville and George Kersh ought to be on there.
I take it we aren't including 800 meter runners, because if we aren't Michael Granville and George Kersh ought to be on there.
I have to disagree with your criteria for al time best. I would put it more like this:
1. Competitive with pros/ncaa: Ryun, Lindgren, Webb
2. All time great performances (era dependent)/HSR: Ritz, Fernandez, Virgin
3. Dominated high school competition: Fisher and a ton of other runners that come along every few years, although fisher is probably at the front of this group with the sub 4
Yes, assume this thread is meant for 1500m on up.
One problem placing Ryun #1 or even in the top 5: since this ranking is based upon cross country as well as track results, and presuming 50% xc/50% track, Ryun's xc results may undermine his high ranking.
Does anyone have any definitive knowledge about what Ryun did in hs xc? Was he a multiple KS state champion? And, even if he was, back 50 years ago the longest distance for any hs xc race was just 2 miles, not 5k like today.
Since there were no Kinney/FootLocker or NXN national xc championships back then, the only national xc championships he could have competed in were the AAU champs. Did he ever run the AAU meet against the top long distance runners of his day like Gerry Lindgren - - such as Craig Virgin did when he placed 11th or 12th his senior year?
Frankly, given equal weight between xc performances & track performances (mile thru 10k), the all-around greatest hs distance runner ever would be Gerry Lindgren, with Virgin & Verzbicus & Ritz all together right behind.
And, where is Pre in all this?
Davey Gravy wrote:
I have to disagree with your criteria for al time best. I would put it more like this:
1. Competitive with pros/ncaa: Ryun, Lindgren, Webb
2. All time great performances (era dependent)/HSR: Ritz, Fernandez, Virgin
3. Dominated high school competition: Fisher and a ton of other runners that come along every few years, although fisher is probably at the front of this group with the sub 4
I would argue that Ritz was competitive with pros and NCAA runners based on his 3rd place at IAAF World Junior Championships (beating Tegenkamp). Also ran 13:44.
RankMeister wrote:
One problem placing Ryun #1 or even in the top 5: since this ranking is based upon cross country as well as track results, and presuming 50% xc/50% track, Ryun's xc results may undermine his high ranking.
That 3:55 would alone would put him above everyone else but Gerry Lindgren.
why are you people so obsesed with hs kids. if he doesnt become a top pro runner then it doesnt really matter anyway and he - fisher - wasted his talent.
too much concern with age-cheaters and dopers - beat the people (anyone) who show up to race.
Fisher over Ritz, World Cross Bronze a bit of a fluke, on a muddy course. If it was so special, Teg wouldn't have been right behind him. Fisher could go sub 8:40 this weekend but will probably sit and kick due to racing 4 weeks in a row
v6 wrote:
The Ritz / Fisher debate is a tough one. I don't think anyone would deny that Ritz's two wins are more impressive than Fisher's, based on quality of the field and margin. But Ritzenhein never did anything hugely impressive under 5000m in track, so Fisher has range on his side. Ritz nabbing a bronze on the world stage probably tips it in his favor for me, but Fisher is more well-rounded so I understand either argument.
Then you need to add Rich Kimball, world junior XC champion, to your list. He also pulled off a nasty double at the 1974 CA state track meet -- 8:46 2 mile, followed by a 4:06 mile 70 minutes later, winning both races.
Teg was in his freshman year at Wisconsin though. I do agree the conditions helped Ritz a bit, but 3rd at World Cross is still 3rd at World Cross. Cross isn't supposed to be easy. And when the winner was Bekele, which means he was in some elite company.Don't forget when Ritz ran his 12:56 years later, he wasn't very far behind Bekele in that race (he was gaining on him toward the end).
pert wrote:
Fisher over Ritz, World Cross Bronze a bit of a fluke, on a muddy course. If it was so special, Teg wouldn't have been right behind him. Fisher could go sub 8:40 this weekend but will probably sit and kick due to racing 4 weeks in a row
162430 wrote:
Anyways, you are either trolling about Fisher or you are so stupid that you are not worth engaging in debate. Does not stand out? His undefeated streak against high school competition is now at 2 years. This includes all races in XC and track. LV is the only other person I can think of who has done that in the Footlocker/Kinney era.
Ritz won the 2 mile outdoors at the national meet his sophomore year. That started his own undefeated streak -- he never lost to HSer again, as far as I know. I can only recall 4 times he lost in HS, period, after that point: US Cross Junior trials (to Teg), World Cross (to Bekele and 1 other guy), Penn Relays 5000, and U.S. Champs 5000.
RItz's bronze at WXC is HUGE. Guy who was 4th in that race ran 26:30 a few years later. That puts him above Fisher for me.
pert wrote:
Fisher over Ritz, World Cross Bronze a bit of a fluke, on a muddy course. If it was so special, Teg wouldn't have been right behind him. Fisher could go sub 8:40 this weekend but will probably sit and kick due to racing 4 weeks in a row
Cross country is muddy. It isn't supposed to be track on grass. And by the way, Ritz beat the defending world junior 10,000m champion in that race, as well as the defending world junior xc champion. Fourth place behind Dathan was Nicholas Kemboi, who would go on to run 26:30 & 13:01 just 2 years later.
Jeff Nelson should be up there. Based on his Mt SAC time and over 3200.
[quote]162430 wrote:
3) Lukas Verzbicas - I know, I know. He sucked at a Oregon, was not a team player, and then switched to tris. All of these things are absolutely deplorable. However, he was THE MAN in high school. *Absolutely unbeatable in both cross-country and track for two years.* When he toed the line in any HS race from 1600m on up, there was no question as to who the winner would be.
Not really quite *absolutely* unbeatable:
(Lukas was only a soph here, and the Rosas were juniors, but he was a year old for his grade, and graduated a year later anyway, so they were on an equal age-footing.)
(And, to be fair, he WAS completely unbeatable his 'senior' year --I don't think he lost a race to any high-schooler, but it's fun to remember the time he got his measure taken rather decisively by the Jersey Boys.)
webb webb webb webb wrote:
162430 wrote:Anyways, you are either trolling about Fisher or you are so stupid that you are not worth engaging in debate. Does not stand out? His undefeated streak against high school competition is now at 2 years. This includes all races in XC and track. LV is the only other person I can think of who has done that in the Footlocker/Kinney era.
Ritz won the 2 mile outdoors at the national meet his sophomore year. That started his own undefeated streak -- he never lost to HSer again, as far as I know. I can only recall 4 times he lost in HS, period, after that point: US Cross Junior trials (to Teg), World Cross (to Bekele and 1 other guy), Penn Relays 5000, and U.S. Champs 5000.
RItz's bronze at WXC is HUGE. Guy who was 4th in that race ran 26:30 a few years later. That puts him above Fisher for me.
There is no doubt that Ritz is right in the conversation. I only have him in the 5-8 tier due to his relatively poor HS 1600/mile time. Did he ever race the mile on the national level? Grant has been undefeated for 2 years and he races in nearly every major event at all 3 distances.
I think that the two of them are a tossup in the 3200/2-mile (although we will have to wait for Brooks to see if that really is the case). Ritz was clearly superior in XC while Grant is clearly superior in the mile. However, I find Grant's XC exploits (undefeated FL champ as a junior and senior, plus an undefeated sophomore season when he skipped the national meets) to be FAR more impressive than Ritzenhein's 4:05.9 1600m.
Don't forget that Fisher is Canadian-born and dual citizenship.Not sure that changes anything, but he is not American born.(That's a good thing by the way, I'm Canadian)
162430 wrote:
Where does Grant Fisher fit in the discussion of the greatest HS distance runners of all-time? To be eligible for consideration, athletes should be dominant in both XC and track (obviously). Here is my take:
1) Jim Ryun - there is really no question about this. He was ranked #4 in the world by T&F news while still in HS. Had the Olympics fallen during his senior season, he would have been a legitimate medal threat. While Webb surpassed Ryun's 3:55.3, he certainly didn't have the "big boys" shaking in their boots (ie El G, Ngeny, Bernie, and so on).
2) Gerry Lindgren - Similarly to Ryun, Lindgren was mixing it up with the world's best as a high schooler. He beat the Russians before starting college and placed 9th in the Olympics. It is well-documented that Billy Mills felt as though Lindgren would have won gold in '64 had he been fully healthy.
3) Lukas Verzbicas - I know, I know. He sucked at a Oregon, was not a team player, and then switched to tris. All of these things are absolutely deplorable. However, he was THE MAN in high school. Absolutely unbeatable in both cross-country and track for two years. When he toed the line in any HS race from 1600m on up, there was no question as to who the winner would be.
4) Grant Fisher - Same boat as Lukas. Seemingly invincible on the HS level. In my opinion, this is what separates the two of them from Webb and Ritz. Webb is arguably the second best HS track runner ever (behind Ryun) and Ritz is the undisputed king of XC. However, they were not strong enough in their "secondary sports" to be ranked ahead of LV or Grant. Ritz was "only" a 4:05 miler; Webb couldn't stay within 100m of Ritz at Footlocker.
5-8 (no particular order): Webb, Ritz, German, Virgin
I would be interested to hear what others think.
No love for Rudy Chapa?
28:32 10,000M, '76 Olympic Trials qualifier, still standing HSR.
ATHLETE COUNTRY MARK
1 Kenenisa BEKELE ETH ETH 25:04
2 Duncan Kipkorir LEBO KEN KEN 25:37
3 Dathan RITZENHEIN USA USA 25:46
4 Nicholas KEMBOI KEN KEN 25:52
5 Matthew TEGENKAMP USA USA 25:55
6 Robert Kipkorir KIPCHUMBA KEN KEN 26:00
It is interesting to look at the 42-second gap from Bekele to Ritz, and 51 seconds in light of their eventual performances. Seems to hold up.
162430 wrote:
webb webb webb webb wrote:Ritz won the 2 mile outdoors at the national meet his sophomore year. That started his own undefeated streak -- he never lost to HSer again, as far as I know. I can only recall 4 times he lost in HS, period, after that point: US Cross Junior trials (to Teg), World Cross (to Bekele and 1 other guy), Penn Relays 5000, and U.S. Champs 5000.
RItz's bronze at WXC is HUGE. Guy who was 4th in that race ran 26:30 a few years later. That puts him above Fisher for me.
There is no doubt that Ritz is right in the conversation. I only have him in the 5-8 tier due to his relatively poor HS 1600/mile time. Did he ever race the mile on the national level? Grant has been undefeated for 2 years and he races in nearly every major event at all 3 distances.
I think that the two of them are a tossup in the 3200/2-mile (although we will have to wait for Brooks to see if that really is the case). Ritz was clearly superior in XC while Grant is clearly superior in the mile. However, I find Grant's XC exploits (undefeated FL champ as a junior and senior, plus an undefeated sophomore season when he skipped the national meets) to be FAR more impressive than Ritzenhein's 4:05.9 1600m.
That 4:05.9 was as a junior. He also ran 8:41.1 for 3200 as a junior.
Duncan Lebo Who? wrote:
ATHLETE COUNTRY MARK
1 Kenenisa BEKELE ETH ETH 25:04
2 Duncan Kipkorir LEBO KEN KEN 25:37
3 Dathan RITZENHEIN USA USA 25:46
4 Nicholas KEMBOI KEN KEN 25:52
5 Matthew TEGENKAMP USA USA 25:55
6 Robert Kipkorir KIPCHUMBA KEN KEN 26:00
It is interesting to look at the 42-second gap from Bekele to Ritz, and 51 seconds in light of their eventual performances. Seems to hold up.
Duncan Lebo ran 28:12 for 10,000m at 5400ft elevation 6 months before this race. Nicholas Kemboi would run 13:01 for 5k & 26:20 for 10k 2 years after this race. The guy in 6th was the defending world junior XC champ as well as the world junior 10,000m champ.
In my opinion, Fisher's all time standing will be heavily affected by the Brooks PR 2 Mile and the US Juniors 1500m. If he works with Ostberg and Brannigan in the 2 Mile, I think he can go sub 8:40. But I wont't be very impressed if he sits and kicks for a 9:50 low time. Also, he will be racing Maton at US juniors. If he can beat Maton and set a new 1500 PR, then he deserves to be top 5. I think to be in the top 5 of this list you have to be the best in your event in your era. Maton's sub 4 mile was more impressive than Fisher's because he ran 56 or 57 for his last lap, and he was in no man's land for a lap and a half. Whereas Fisher's was evenly paced and he never had to go solo.
The Webb vs Ritz argument is very compelling for this list. If Fisher doesn't improve his current standing, I'd put him at 6 with Webb at 4th and Ritz at 5th. Does Maton deserve consideration for top 10 or 15 all time? His destruction of Galen's track and XC records has been very impressive.
1:49.84 - 800m Freshmen National Record - Cooper Lutkenhaus (check this kick out!!)
Jakob on Oly 1500- “Walk in the park if I don’t get injured or sick”
Emma Coburn to miss Olympic Trials after breaking ankle in Suzhou
VALBY has graduated (w/ honors) from Florida, will she go to grad school??
Men who run twice a day and the women who love/put up with them