Good luck next year Grant
Good luck next year Grant
Dathan Ritzenhein placed THIRD at world junior cross. And that was when age cheating was even more rampant - he completely took it to 20+-year-old Kenyans and Ethiopians.
Being the best high school runner among all high schoolers in the country is one thing, but Ritz, Lindgren, and Ryun rose above their status as "American high schoolers" and put on dominant performances at the WORLD level. You can't say that about Fisher or Verzbicas, even though they are indisputably among the best US high school runners ever, based on times and wins at the national HS level.
It feels weird to put Fisher ahead of Ritz, whom I regard as the greatest high school XC runner of all time. But you make a compelling case.
That being said, we need to wait to see what Fisher does at the Brooks 2 mile before we're able to definitively say where he belongs on this list. If he runs, say, sub 8:40, then he could end up being higher than 4. I guess right now I'd say:
1) Ryun
2) Verzbicas
3) Ritzenhein
4) Fisher
5) Lindgren
6) Webb
7) German
This is very rare: A post on LR that is interesting, timely, about running, and, most rare of all, made me change my mind. Before reading your argument I would have ranked them
1. Ryun
2. Lindgren
3. Webb
4. Ritz
5. German
and probably Fisher at around 8.
Now? I agree with you completely. And I also (!) agree with the poster above that if Fisher wins the 2 mile in under 8:40, he moves to number 3.
Interestingly, none of us are including Rupp - which may be evidence that you (and the rest of us...) are trolling.
I think I'm prepared to defend excluding Rupp from the top 8 or so, though, even if he was clean (or we stipulate that they're all dirty...)
This is indeed a great thread.
Figuring out where to rank Rupp is tricky. He never won Footlocker and he never broke 4, so I don't think we can put him ahead of Fisher/Verzbicas/Webb/Ritz/Ryun. Lindgren and German had more impressive high school careers than Rupp, too. IMO Rupp finally enters the conversation after those seven, primarily off the strength of his 13:37, which probably won't be broken for a long time, if ever.
162430 wrote:
Where does Grant Fisher fit in the discussion of the greatest HS distance runners of all-time? To be eligible for consideration, athletes should be dominant in both XC and track (obviously). Here is my take:
1) Jim Ryun - there is really no question about this. He was ranked #4 in the world by T&F news while still in HS. Had the Olympics fallen during his senior season, he would have been a legitimate medal threat. While Webb surpassed Ryun's 3:55.3, he certainly didn't have the "big boys" shaking in their boots (ie El G, Ngeny, Bernie, and so on).
2) Gerry Lindgren - Similarly to Ryun, Lindgren was mixing it up with the world's best as a high schooler. He beat the Russians before starting college and placed 9th in the Olympics. It is well-documented that Billy Mills felt as though Lindgren would have won gold in '64 had he been fully healthy.
3) Lukas Verzbicas - I know, I know. He sucked at a Oregon, was not a team player, and then switched to tris. All of these things are absolutely deplorable. However, he was THE MAN in high school. Absolutely unbeatable in both cross-country and track for two years. When he toed the line in any HS race from 1600m on up, there was no question as to who the winner would be.
4) Grant Fisher - Same boat as Lukas. Seemingly invincible on the HS level. In my opinion, this is what separates the two of them from Webb and Ritz. Webb is arguably the second best HS track runner ever (behind Ryun) and Ritz is the undisputed king of XC. However, they were not strong enough in their "secondary sports" to be ranked ahead of LV or Grant. Ritz was "only" a 4:05 miler; Webb couldn't stay within 100m of Ritz at Footlocker.
5-8 (no particular order): Webb, Ritz, German, Virgin
I would be interested to hear what others think.
Top 5
Ryun
Lindgren
Webb
Ritzenhein
Verzbicas
Webb and Ritz to be ranked higher, OP.
Webb had not only a 3:53 mile but an insane range. Second in Footlocker plus his 400, 800, and 2 mile times are hugely impressive.
Ritz was third in a world XC meet full of doped-up age cheats. He was more than likely the first legit junior to cross the finish line, thus the best in the world.
Never been a fan of Verzbikas, personally. The sketchy background and age issues are more than a tad off-putting. I wouldn't rank him at all.
I agree 100%. So far, Sean McGorty has failed to show any signs of improvement since HS... Same goes for the Rosa twins.
German Fernandez ran 3:55 mile and 13:25 5000m at 18, both far superior to Rupp at 18, and GF wasn't taking testosterone and prednisone. Sure GF was in college already, but it's not his fault he graduated so young. In hs, he also ran 4:00 1600 (Rupp 4:02 mile) and 8:34.40 NR (Rupp ran I think 8:07 3k, which is considerably inferior). Neither won footlocker, so I give it to GF.
Grant Fisher is a great hs athlete and the competition is very good now. For the track times, it is hard to compare him with others without the 800/2M, so wait a week for the 2M, but also hard to compare him because he's had so many chances to run fast against higher competition, college/pro. Webb had his one shot at the pros with his 3:53, and ran 8:45 with a 14 second win indoors at the time he ran 3:59 mile indoors. Webb didn't win xc but he set a South region record and beat Hall at Footlocker, despite running an incredible and crazy workout just a few days before, a workout that predicted his future 3:53.
The Ritz / Fisher debate is a tough one. I don't think anyone would deny that Ritz's two wins are more impressive than Fisher's, based on quality of the field and margin. But Ritzenhein never did anything hugely impressive under 5000m in track, so Fisher has range on his side. Ritz nabbing a bronze on the world stage probably tips it in his favor for me, but Fisher is more well-rounded so I understand either argument.
adsfasfd wrote:
Dathan Ritzenhein placed THIRD at world junior cross. And that was when age cheating was even more rampant - he completely took it to 20+-year-old Kenyans and Ethiopians.
Being the best high school runner among all high schoolers in the country is one thing, but Ritz, Lindgren, and Ryun rose above their status as "American high schoolers" and put on dominant performances at the WORLD level. You can't say that about Fisher or Verzbicas, even though they are indisputably among the best US high school runners ever, based on times and wins at the national HS level.
Grant Fisher placed 9th at the World Youth Championships in the 1500m and was the youngest competitor in the field (full of age cheats). He and Blake Haney I believe are the only two USA male athletes to have made a 1500 m final at World Youth.
I would move Fisher up the list as he is the brightest (smartest student of all that have been listed/in discussion) and he speaks better.
does anyone know Ritz's VO2 max?is it super high or is he just a tough dude? i've read quotes of him after being injured for a long time where he says he basically walks around in sub 14:00 shapethanks
v6 wrote:
The Ritz / Fisher debate is a tough one. I don't think anyone would deny that Ritz's two wins are more impressive than Fisher's, based on quality of the field and margin. But Ritzenhein never did anything hugely impressive under 5000m in track, so Fisher has range on his side. Ritz nabbing a bronze on the world stage probably tips it in his favor for me, but Fisher is more well-rounded so I understand either argument.
Fisher is likely #1 for athletes not on PEDs or having deep mental issues.
v6 wrote:
The Ritz / Fisher debate is a tough one. I don't think anyone would deny that Ritz's two wins are more impressive than Fisher's, based on quality of the field and margin. But Ritzenhein never did anything hugely impressive under 5000m in track, so Fisher has range on his side. Ritz nabbing a bronze on the world stage probably tips it in his favor for me, but Fisher is more well-rounded so I understand either argument.
Both from Michigan (Ritz and Fisher). Both in the A-T discussion.
The big unknown about Fisher is his untapped potential based on his coming into the sport late and most likely not doing near the volume of training of the others in discussion.
Fisher is like a violin... has tremendous range and is beautiful to listen to (watch) whether being played (running) slow or fast = Stradivarius.
Ryun and Webb are #1 and #2
Fisher is good, but not top-10 all-time. He never raced Maton this year. Andrew Hunter looks like he will run faster than Fisher next year. When you look at the other guys around him, Fisher just doesn't stand out.
Ryun and Webb would be NCAA contenders as seniors in HS. Lindgren too.
Ryun and Webb are #1 and #2Webb would be NCAA contenders as seniors in HS. Lindgren too.
Agreed.
Lenny Leonard wrote:
Ryun and Webb are #1 and #2
Fisher is good, but not top-10 all-time. He never raced Maton this year. Andrew Hunter looks like he will run faster than Fisher next year. When you look at the other guys around him, Fisher just doesn't stand out.
Ryun and Webb would be NCAA contenders as seniors in HS. Lindgren too.
I think Webb a #2 is a bit generous, but I can at least understand the argument. I think that he is definitely second hen you consider track only. However, he only finished 8th at FL as a junior and then ran a subpar 14:55 as a senior. For frame of reference, this is basically equivalent to what Danny Coval ran to take 7th the year before. Who is Coval you may ask? Exactly.
Anyways, you are either trolling about Fisher or you are so stupid that you are not worth engaging in debate. Does not stand out? His undefeated streak against high school competition is now at 2 years. This includes all races in XC and track. LV is the only other person I can think of who has done that in the Footlocker/Kinney era.
Lenny Leonard wrote:
Ryun and Webb are #1 and #2
Fisher is good, but not top-10 all-time. He never raced Maton this year. Andrew Hunter looks like he will run faster than Fisher next year. When you look at the other guys around him, Fisher just doesn't stand out.
Ryun and Webb would be NCAA contenders as seniors in HS. Lindgren too.
Are you nuts?
As well, Fisher is the two time Gatorade male cross country player of the year. That alone makes him one of the modern era all time greats. In fact he stands a good chance of winning Gatorade male track and field athlete of the year. If that were to happen no other male athlete has won three such awards and no male athlete has won awards in two different sports.
Chew on that.
Webb beat Brian Berryhill as a senior. When Berryhill was the NCAA 1500m champ. Right?
Fisher ran all the big-time national meets (Footlocker, Indoor Nats, Dream Mile, Brooks PR 2 Mile) last year and this year, and so far has won them all. Maton was MIA at most of them of them. Maton should have been trying to get in a race with Fisher this year...he had nothing to lose really...but we all know he didn't actually want that.2x Footlocker Champion #3 all-time Mile (with several races in the 4:00-4:02 range)TBD all-time 2 MileHe's top 5 all-time without a doubt.
Lenny Leonard wrote:
Fisher is good, but not top-10 all-time. He never raced Maton this year. Andrew Hunter looks like he will run faster than Fisher next year. When you look at the other guys around him, Fisher just doesn't stand out.