He really seems to stress that runners tend to run too slow on their easy days. He gives the exampe of how his wife improved significantly when she forcibly raised her easy pace from 7:30s to 6:30s. I find that it's better to let your body dictate.Thoughts?
I partially agree with both of you. I think that it is important to maintain a pretty good pace (with a 10:20 3200 PR/16:59 5K PR) I usually maintain 6:30 - 6:50. Although, I would not be against going above 7 if I was extra tired or it was too hot or something. There is such a thing as going slow, but it's not like one should force a fast pace after a really hard workout if they don't feel like normal.
Yes. People run their easy days too easy and their hard days too hard. Training works best when it's a variable basic grind.
I have seen examples of people at all distances make progress on all sorts of schemes of varying intensity balances.
Some sprinters do little to no tempo work, some do lots of easy extensive tempo volume, and some, like Michael Johnson and the Jamaicans, do a good deal of moderate intensity work between speed workouts.
For middle distance, Cram and Coe would do OBLA runs on days between hard intervals, while Morcelli jogged at a snail's pace on easy days.
In the 70s & 80s, Frank Shorter & Moore did extremely polarized training to high success, while guys like Malmo, Bill Rodgers, & Nenow did a lot of high end aerobic work almost daily.
Like a lot of things in running, I guess it just depends on the individual.
Vary it up. Too much of the same stimulus gives diminishing returns. For track runners, try doing lots of high end aerobic work early in the season, backing off as you approach the key competitive phase where you want to hit your workouts harder. For marathon running, do lots of high end aerobic even late into your specific phase, but put more space between your hard workouts.
Alan's take wrote:
He really seems to stress that runners tend to run too slow on their easy days. He gives the exampe of how his wife improved significantly when she forcibly raised her easy pace from 7:30s to 6:30s. I find that it's better to let your body dictate.Thoughts?
Judging by Strava, I'd say the opposite is true- most runners run their easy runs too hard.
His wife was a 2-time Olympian (1500m/5000m runner), not exactly representative of "most runners".
I've never seen clear evidence that any one way to train is THE way to train.
I know dudes who run high mileage just under 7 minute pace between workout days and broke 28/13:30.
I know dudes who ran sub 6 on their easy runs who didn't break 32/15:30.
I know dudes who ran sub 6 and broke 29.
There's a lot of anecdotal evidence out there but you can really only find out for yourself by trying. Problem is, your best shot is between 20 and 25 for most of us and you could have done the wrong thing and got hurt or not reached potential.
Alan's take wrote:
He really seems to stress that runners tend to run too slow on their easy days. He gives the exampe of how his wife improved significantly when she forcibly raised her easy pace from 7:30s to 6:30s. I find that it's better to let your body dictate.Thoughts?
When I moved to flagstaff in early 2000 - just months before the birth of LetsRun.com to train with Weldon for the 2000 Trials, I couldn't believe how slow he was running.
I had just run a marathon (well I guess he had as well as he paced me for the whole thing) but when I started back up, I was like "this pace is a joke. He's trying to make the Olympics. I can't even make the Trials and he's running this slow"
I called up John Kellogg and said, "Do you want to me secretely push the pace on our easy days like at least 15 seconds a mile, he won't know I'm doing it?"
John said, "We'll worry about the easy day pace last. It's the least important thing."
We never did increase it. That's the he went from 29:49 in 10k to
28:27.
In college he ran his easy days at 6:30 pace and couldn't break 30. As a pro, he ran way more, lived at altitude and ran way slower (definitely over 7) and nearly broke 28:00.
Now. Saying that it's important to realize he was RUNNING A LOT.
Shayne Culpepper was really a 1500-3k runner who moved up to the 5k. I doubt most female runners in that category are running much.
It's the principal that applies.
You want to generally be adding a stimulus each year. For most people, it's mileage. When you are in HS and in college, it's generally easy to add 10 mpw each year. 30 as a frosh, 40 as soph, etc. Only as a pro or if you are a mid-d guy/gal are you often maxed out on that front.
If you aren't running very much, you should run it faster. When I was at Cornell and some freshmen would say to me, "Why don't we run 615 pace on our easy days. That's what I did in HS." I'd reply. "You were running only 40 mpwl. You'd better run it fast."
So there you have it. If you are running a lot or increasing your mileage, i wouldn't worry about it. You likely won't be able to handle a faster pace. If you aren't running a lot or are more of a 5k person - maybe it makes morse sense (i hated the intenstiy of the 5k - such a grind - maybe grinding out easy days is equivalent?).
That being said, when Nick WIllis ran with my Cornell boys one day he said to me as we were jogging at like 7:30 pace, "Do you guys always run this pace." I thought he was complaining it was so slow. I was about to start making some excuse about how we only had one meet left, etc as it was very slow that day and late in the season but before he could he added, "Thank goodness. Finally a team I can run with. I can't ever run with the Michigan guys - they just go way too fast (this was when he was a pro)."
I replied, "Don't they know you are an Olymipan? Why wouldn't they jsut slow down and run your pace?" He just sort of smiled.
So it depends on a lot of factors. But I wouldn't change what you are doing if you are a long distance male based on what some mid-d female did.
While the first person I ever coached to USAs was a woman, I haven't coached a lot of them. I do think they can run faster and probably should as scientifically according to John Kellogg they dont' benefit from high mileage as much as a man.
It's principle not principal, Rojo.
Likely Wejo should have started pushing the pace once he had built his volume but instead he got stuck in a rut.
I find that as people increase their fitness, they don't always increase their pace. Average runners run too fast. My college coach tried to get my team of 15min+ 5k guys to run 6 or under every day. Way too fast. We should have been running at 7 min pace, and as we got better, lowered our pace to 6 min pace as we approached 14 for 5k.
Remember who the audience is here.
I very often see guys who are in the 20:00-22:00 5K range who run most of their mileage at 8:00-9:00. Most of the time this is with little or no speed work. The "easy" way to improve in their minds is to bump up mileage. The body never learns to adapt to a faster pace, so they never improve in their race times.
I will agree that the phenomenon is reversed in recreational marathoning. I'd guess around 50% or more of a lot of inexperienced runners' training is done at M-pace or faster. A 3:30 marathoner training at 7:45-8:15 pace primarily would be like an elite doing most of his runs at 4:30-4:50 pace.
it depends on how hard you workout and what your training for. In marathon training there are days I'll average 540-550 for 18-20something miles in a workout.... but then the next day don't break 9 minutes for 4 miles to make sure I fully recover
its all hydro wrote:
it depends on how hard you workout and what your training for. In marathon training there are days I'll average 540-550 for 18-20something miles in a workout.... but then the next day don't break 9 minutes for 4 miles to make sure I fully recover
I don't know, but, probably, a sub 9 minute 4 mile run is too fast for optimal recovery
Gold star post!
I wish we could just memorialize this kind of information and just copy and paste it when this topic comes up again next month.
I've kind of been intuitively thinking that what ROJO wrote is true based on my training. However, he actually wrote it down while it was just an inkling for me.
Nice Job!
Obviously every runner is different, but I would disagree with this on the basis that most runners that I've encountered and coached actually do their easy runs much too quickly, and then are unable to properly complete their harder workouts. My own personal opinion is that you should do an easy run by feel; some days you might feel great and run 6:40 pace, other days you're a bit tired, whether from running, work, etc. and you might run 7:30.
I think that GPS watches have actually made legitimate easy runs more of a challenge, as there is always that pressure to go faster than you did the day before, the week before, etc.
The plural of anecdote is not data, but, for what it's worth, here's my experience:
When I was running 80-100 mpw at 6:40 pace, I was a 2:47 marathoner. When I switched to 120-180 mpw at 8 minute pace, I ran a 2:27 marathon. I was also much faster at shorter distances as well. Personally, I think that as long as you're 'running' there's no such thing as too slow or too long.
GPS/Strava are pushing a lot of dudes. I stopped using my watch on routes I know for the sake of not being able to compare the pace.
I think Rojo's post is very sound.
Ultimately, I think that after you have maxed out your slow easy mileage, the pace should get faster to be a new stimulus. But I also think this should come around of its own accord because you're fitter, not because you're trying that much harder.
As always, the most important thing in training is to remain consistent. If you have to run slow on easy days to be consistent, slow is fine.
Lenny Leonard wrote:
Remember who the audience is here.
I very often see guys who are in the 20:00-22:00 5K range who run most of their mileage at 8:00-9:00. Most of the time this is with little or no speed work. The "easy" way to improve in their minds is to bump up mileage. The body never learns to adapt to a faster pace, so they never improve in their race times.
Is the criticism the lack of speedwork or are you saying that easy days should be faster for these types of runners? 8:00-9:00 seems to be right within the recommended ranges based on Daniels/McMillan.
There is no rule on this. It varies per runner. I did a great deal of 6:30 pace training at 70 mpw. I improved, but also improved significantly running 7:30-8:00 pace. The key for me was to run one hard workout a week. A race, tempo run, time trial or speed workout.
For other runners it's different.
In talking to veteran runners from the 1960's and 70's (guys now in their 50's or 60's) I find that the one area most of them would have changed was to have slowed down their easy training day pace.
Link wrote:
When I was running 80-100 mpw at 6:40 pace, I was a 2:47 marathoner. When I switched to 120-180 mpw at 8 minute pace, I ran a 2:27 marathon. I was also much faster at shorter distances as well. Personally, I think that as long as you're 'running' there's no such thing as too slow or too long.
You have to look at the duration here.
6:40 pace over 90 miles is 600 minutes of running
8:00 pace over 150 miles is 1200 minutes of running
If you can survive that you will get better. Your body is getting so much stimulus it has to.
If you do did 6:40 for 150 miles thats 1000 minutes but almost certainly the land of injury.