Deano surely you are aware that the Kenyan 1,000, 1,500, 3,000, 2 mile and 5,000m records were all set by athletes managed and coached by Brit Kim McDonald in his London base. That is from his star triumvirate of Noah Ngeny, Moses Kiptanui and Daniel Komen. Care to smear the other athletes he coached like Bob Kennedy, Peter Elliott, Sonia O'Sullivan while you're at it? Are you accusing Kim of operating an EPO ring. I'm sure all of the athletes he managed like Steve Ovett, John Walker and Marcus O'Sullivan would love to know this about their late manager. Oh and your proof? Fast times of course, and literally no contemporaneous proof from athletes who were there. Many of them have said as much in Letsrun threads if you cared to look.
Don't quite get your point! Yes, I am aware of who Kim McDonald was, and while he coached some of the athletes mentioned, he was only a 'manager' of others. I do not recall ever reading that Mcdonald had any influence on the career or training of Ovett. Eliott I am aware of.
What you need to consider is when he was coaching/managing these athletes, where they were in their career projectories, and also you need to figure in the fact that certain African countries had no out of season testing (until very recently) by their own federations. An athlete from most European nations (and others around the World) would have had to submit their whereabouts for testing every day of their careers. This would not have been the case for Ngeny, for instance. It would therefore be much easier for an athlete from a nation that has no testing, to dope at strategic times of the year, probably when training at altitude in some remote part of Africa where even the IAAF testers would seldom if ever visit due to logistical proximity to nearest testing lab in Europe.
In addition, just because 1 athlete in one era is doping, it doesn't necessarily mean that another athlete with the same coach in a different era was also doping with EPO. If the athlete wasn't competing at elite level between c. '93 and '06, then it is less likely they were using EPO. Unfortunately, due to sheer lack of testing, many African athletes and those from countries around the world deemed too poor to afford OOS random testing for their athletes, are more likely to have used EPO during this era (especially before 2000, when the first test for EPO became available).
I think McDonald started to train Kenyans in the mid 80's, but the real effects of his training weren't realised until the mid 90's, when he coached Ngeny, Kiptanui and Komen. It could be just a coincidence that all those WRs were set by Kenyans in the late 90's (not to mention the likes of EL G and Geb knocking huge chunks of the WRs), at a time when there was no test for EPO. Or it could be a bit more than that. And even if any of those did take EPO, it doesn't automatically follow that their coach/agent was aware of it.
However, it is unfortunate (but should be remembered) that Mcdonald did have a close working relationship with Dieter Hogen. He who went on to head the Kimbia stable and was a product of the GDR system in the '80's, having been trained by Berndt Diessner alongside Straub and Beyer; the latter of course was named in documents uncovered after the German unification as one of a number of athletes on a state sponsored drug scheme; and one wonders how Straub ran so far above himself in one solitary race in Moscow! Hogen is also married to ex German marathon runner, Uta Pippig, herself banned for PED use in 1998 (caught by a random out of season test).
Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but I came across this thread (see link below) from here 15 years ago, in which one of the discussion points (PEDs) was attempted to be dismissed by someone stating that they knew/believed that Aficans were clean- 'Ask people that actually know the sport (as opposed to those who subscribe to the "they ran fast so they're on drugs" dogma) and you will find that the most suspicious athlete believes the KIM group, and the majority of Kenyans in general, to be clean. For instance, Jon Brown who has been perhaps the most outspoken against cheating and has not been bashful in naming names was recently quoted to the effect of, "by and large the Africans are clean."'
Now, while of course it is a nonsense to state all Africans are doping, unfortunately their recent record of drug busts (in the same way as Russia, but without the sanctioned state sponsoring) is not great and I certainly do not buy into the argument quoted above, especially not for the period 93 - 06.
Yes, the Dieter Hogan association I have seen. If you look through that thread you can sneer at one poster's (who you ID'ed) probably naive assessment and use it to disqualify. Or you can look at the two athletes in the thread (Rinaldi et al.), who literally lived and trained with the athletes in Australia, London and Palo Alto. They also note that IAAF testers came by the team. They say they saw nothing untoward and that Kim would not stand for it. Now, to your eras point you are trying to have it both ways. Kim-managed or coached athletes didn't dope in the 80s by one estimation of yours. Well assorted random Kenyans tested positive in the 2010s for EPO, that means that 90s-era Kenyans did dope? Because why? They ran faster times? They had less OOC testing by your estimation? How can you be so sure the IAAF didn't test them quite a bit with the group being in the Australia, US and England most commonly. If you examined the British in the 80s you could just as easily say they were blood-doped in the 1980s/early 90s looking at how fast the times were as compare until about 5 years ago.
Anyhow my overall point is, you really don't know. Yes, 3 Kenyan athletes in Ngeny, Komen and Kiptanui were completes studs in the late 90s. There were 3 complete British studs in the 80s. Make no mistake that Sebastian Coe and Steve Cram in this era of bouncy tracks and superspikes might be able to run 3:27 or faster. You don't know when you're going to have a generational athletes. Kenyans dominate longer-distance running before and after more OOC testing, the EPO test etc.. They just went 1-2 in the 800, won the 15 at the world champs, Olympic gold in women's etc etc. They have the biggest/best stable of marathon/half marathon runners in the world. So, my point is a scattering of random drug busts over the last 5 years as a conclusion that the whole KIMbia group is dirty is quite the claim. But let's be honest you are saying it mostly because they ran fast because your best innuendo is Dieter Hogan.
No one doubt there was a great boom of performances everywhere in the middle/long distances.
Haile Gebreselassi or Bekele maybe a great distances runners but their sudden performance explosion can only explained by using non usual training procedures.
No one doubt there was a great boom of performances everywhere in the middle/long distances.
Haile Gebreselassi or Bekele maybe a great distances runners but their sudden performance explosion can only explained by using non usual training procedures.
I would not begrudge anyone like Deano if they think all or most of the mid-90s marks were EPO-enhanced. I just think we should critically think about each factor before assuming on any athlete. It is of note that a lot of the skeletons in the closet have emerged some 25-30 years later or even for more recent standouts. If you hear about the team doctor who gave you coded language about doing what he had to do back then. National federations in disarray over state-sponsored doping, suspicious medical conditions afflicting a once-formidable athlete, athletes from the time who were privy to suspect behavior. Coaches/former athletes caught pushing drugs on others and so on. In the complete absence of these things, we are now on fast performances + less robust testing = doping, a cynical line of thinking which may be true or may be not.
Don't quite get your point! Yes, I am aware of who Kim McDonald was, and while he coached some of the athletes mentioned, he was only a 'manager' of others. I do not recall ever reading that Mcdonald had any influence on the career or training of Ovett. Eliott I am aware of.
What you need to consider is when he was coaching/managing these athletes, where they were in their career projectories, and also you need to figure in the fact that certain African countries had no out of season testing (until very recently) by their own federations. An athlete from most European nations (and others around the World) would have had to submit their whereabouts for testing every day of their careers. This would not have been the case for Ngeny, for instance. It would therefore be much easier for an athlete from a nation that has no testing, to dope at strategic times of the year, probably when training at altitude in some remote part of Africa where even the IAAF testers would seldom if ever visit due to logistical proximity to nearest testing lab in Europe.
In addition, just because 1 athlete in one era is doping, it doesn't necessarily mean that another athlete with the same coach in a different era was also doping with EPO. If the athlete wasn't competing at elite level between c. '93 and '06, then it is less likely they were using EPO. Unfortunately, due to sheer lack of testing, many African athletes and those from countries around the world deemed too poor to afford OOS random testing for their athletes, are more likely to have used EPO during this era (especially before 2000, when the first test for EPO became available).
I think McDonald started to train Kenyans in the mid 80's, but the real effects of his training weren't realised until the mid 90's, when he coached Ngeny, Kiptanui and Komen. It could be just a coincidence that all those WRs were set by Kenyans in the late 90's (not to mention the likes of EL G and Geb knocking huge chunks of the WRs), at a time when there was no test for EPO. Or it could be a bit more than that. And even if any of those did take EPO, it doesn't automatically follow that their coach/agent was aware of it.
However, it is unfortunate (but should be remembered) that Mcdonald did have a close working relationship with Dieter Hogen. He who went on to head the Kimbia stable and was a product of the GDR system in the '80's, having been trained by Berndt Diessner alongside Straub and Beyer; the latter of course was named in documents uncovered after the German unification as one of a number of athletes on a state sponsored drug scheme; and one wonders how Straub ran so far above himself in one solitary race in Moscow! Hogen is also married to ex German marathon runner, Uta Pippig, herself banned for PED use in 1998 (caught by a random out of season test).
Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but I came across this thread (see link below) from here 15 years ago, in which one of the discussion points (PEDs) was attempted to be dismissed by someone stating that they knew/believed that Aficans were clean- 'Ask people that actually know the sport (as opposed to those who subscribe to the "they ran fast so they're on drugs" dogma) and you will find that the most suspicious athlete believes the KIM group, and the majority of Kenyans in general, to be clean. For instance, Jon Brown who has been perhaps the most outspoken against cheating and has not been bashful in naming names was recently quoted to the effect of, "by and large the Africans are clean."'
Now, while of course it is a nonsense to state all Africans are doping, unfortunately their recent record of drug busts (in the same way as Russia, but without the sanctioned state sponsoring) is not great and I certainly do not buy into the argument quoted above, especially not for the period 93 - 06.
Yes, the Dieter Hogan association I have seen. If you look through that thread you can sneer at one poster's (who you ID'ed) probably naive assessment and use it to disqualify. Or you can look at the two athletes in the thread (Rinaldi et al.), who literally lived and trained with the athletes in Australia, London and Palo Alto. They also note that IAAF testers came by the team. They say they saw nothing untoward and that Kim would not stand for it. Now, to your eras point you are trying to have it both ways. Kim-managed or coached athletes didn't dope in the 80s by one estimation of yours. Well assorted random Kenyans tested positive in the 2010s for EPO, that means that 90s-era Kenyans did dope? Because why? They ran faster times? They had less OOC testing by your estimation? How can you be so sure the IAAF didn't test them quite a bit with the group being in the Australia, US and England most commonly. If you examined the British in the 80s you could just as easily say they were blood-doped in the 1980s/early 90s looking at how fast the times were as compare until about 5 years ago.
Anyhow my overall point is, you really don't know. Yes, 3 Kenyan athletes in Ngeny, Komen and Kiptanui were completes studs in the late 90s. There were 3 complete British studs in the 80s. Make no mistake that Sebastian Coe and Steve Cram in this era of bouncy tracks and superspikes might be able to run 3:27 or faster. You don't know when you're going to have a generational athletes. Kenyans dominate longer-distance running before and after more OOC testing, the EPO test etc.. They just went 1-2 in the 800, won the 15 at the world champs, Olympic gold in women's etc etc. They have the biggest/best stable of marathon/half marathon runners in the world. So, my point is a scattering of random drug busts over the last 5 years as a conclusion that the whole KIMbia group is dirty is quite the claim. But let's be honest you are saying it mostly because they ran fast because your best innuendo is Dieter Hogan.
I agree with a lot of what you have written, and you are absolutely correct when you say 'I don't know'. By the same token, neither do you or the vast majority of people.
My suspicions concerning Ngeny and Komen in particular, are not based on the fact that they were trained by Mcdonald, but rather their meteoric rise in the era of undetectable EPO, and then their equally abrupt decline just as the EPO test came in. I think there is a lot of evidence to suggest that El G doped, and the fact that others were able to push him close suggest (to me) that they were likely taking it too.
So, my point is a scattering of random drug busts over the last 5 years as a conclusion that the whole KIMbia group is dirty is quite the claim.
I never said this. I purposely pointed out that coaches will not always know if their athletes are doping. Having read lots, analysed stats and discussed with many on here and elsewhere, I am of the opinion that many elite middle and distance athletes in the mid-late '90's used EPO.
My suspicions concerning Ngeny and Komen in particular, are not based on the fact that they were trained by Mcdonald, but rather their meteoric rise in the era of undetectable EPO, and then their equally abrupt decline just as the EPO test came in. I think there is a lot of evidence to suggest that El G doped, and the fact that others were able to push him close suggest (to me) that they were likely taking it too.
I never said this. I purposely pointed out that coaches will not always know if their athletes are doping. Having read lots, analysed stats and discussed with many on here and elsewhere, I am of the opinion that many elite middle and distance athletes in the mid-late '90's used EPO.
Fair on these. They of course did not choose what era they came up in like any athlete born from 1975-1982. Ngeny and Komen had short careers no doubt, but there're of course extenuating factors between Komen's lifestyle choices and Ngeny's car accident. It's worth noting Sydney was when they introduced the EPO test and Ngeny was running at a high level (though not at his '98-'00 heights) until that car accident in November 2001. Komen was fading before 2000, and again people blame a great number of things for that decline, and I doubt many would go to his fear of testing positive in 1999 persay.
You may be right on the coaches thing, though I find it a little less believable for athletes that are in this tight-knit a setup as the KIMbia group appeared to be. Traveling all around the world with the same manager/coach. Athletes going rogue I suppose is possible, but it stretches some credulity for me.
The El G one features some of those gray areas of which I've been spoken. His setup was notoriously full of secrecy. Unlike KIMbia, we don't have a thread of lesser athletes who can ascribe to living and training with him or the group. His coach (Kada) has been accused by Hamza Driouch of pushing drugs upon him. Then there's the numerous Moroccan drug busts of the era (at a much higher proportion than Kenyans ever), and how things have gone down over the last 5-10 years. Even for the biggest believer, there has to be a lot of skepticism beyond his otherworldly times.
My suspicions concerning Ngeny and Komen in particular, are not based on the fact that they were trained by Mcdonald, but rather their meteoric rise in the era of undetectable EPO, and then their equally abrupt decline just as the EPO test came in. I think there is a lot of evidence to suggest that El G doped, and the fact that others were able to push him close suggest (to me) that they were likely taking it too.
I never said this. I purposely pointed out that coaches will not always know if their athletes are doping. Having read lots, analysed stats and discussed with many on here and elsewhere, I am of the opinion that many elite middle and distance athletes in the mid-late '90's used EPO.
The El G one features some of those gray areas of which I've been spoken. His setup was notoriously full of secrecy. Unlike KIMbia, we don't have a thread of lesser athletes who can ascribe to living and training with him or the group. His coach (Kada) has been accused by Hamza Driouch of pushing drugs upon him. Then there's the numerous Moroccan drug busts of the era (at a much higher proportion than Kenyans ever), and how things have gone down over the last 5-10 years. Even for the biggest believer, there has to be a lot of skepticism beyond his otherworldly times.
Always trying to mount on the shoulder of Moroccans.
Do you know that we spread more information than you?
In your country, there is the "No Mans Land" of information.
Whatever you do, we are a country with more historical in depth.
There was NO testing of athletes from these countries during this period, unlike most of the rest of the world. Certainly their own national federations did not carry out any sort of testing on them, and the Kenyans only started being tested about 5 years ago! Not sure if Ethiopians training at home are even tested to this day by the Ethioian federation!? And not sure what the WA policy is at moment for carrying out random testing of many African athletes that train for large sections of time at altitude. I know in the past they were reluctant to even attempt such testing as the samples were usually untestable by the time they reached the nearest laboratory facilities. I believe now there is one in Kenya, hence the more testing (and positive tests) of Kenyan athletes in recent years. At least they are attempting to clean up.
The only time they would have been tested in the period under discussion (and don't forget there wasn't a test for EPO until late 2000, and only then it wasn't reliable until an improved one came out in 2005) for steroids and other PEDs would have been by the IAAF at meets in the summer.
Deano surely you are aware that the Kenyan 1,000, 1,500, 3,000, 2 mile and 5,000m records were all set by athletes managed and coached by Brit Kim McDonald in his London base. That is from his star triumvirate of Noah Ngeny, Moses Kiptanui and Daniel Komen. Care to smear the other athletes he coached like Bob Kennedy, Peter Elliott, Sonia O'Sullivan while you're at it? Are you accusing Kim of operating an EPO ring. I'm sure all of the athletes he managed like Steve Ovett, John Walker and Marcus O'Sullivan would love to know this about their late manager. Oh and your proof? Fast times of course, and literally no contemporaneous proof from athletes who were there. Many of them have said as much in Letsrun threads if you cared to look.
Why would athletes who were there offer proof of EPO use?
Why would athletes who were there offer proof of EPO use?
There are all sorts of reasons. David Torrance (RIP) blew the whistle on Jama Aden, the Gouchers/Magness on Salazar, Driouch did on his coaches, the Spanish doctor did on Cacho, Australian athletes did on Aouita, the Russian athlete and her RUSADA husband did on Russia. And so on down the line.
Two years later he completely disappear from the athletics scene.
Car accidents that break your leg(s) have a way of shortening running careers.
Ngeny had his car accident in November 2001, AFTER he was dropped (at the last minute) from the Kenyan team for the World Champs. That year, before the accident, his best was 3:31.94, some way off what he had achieved the previous 2 seasons.
Ngeny was also able to run a 3:33.02 (only 1 sec slower than his 2001 best) in May 2002, just 8 months after his car accident. Quite a swift recovery! He ran 3:33.96 in 2003 and 3:33.38 in 2004. It seems a strange injury that it stopped him running equivalent to 3:27 (based on mile pb) or 3:28, but wasn't bad enough to prevent him running 3:32/3:33!
Don’t think this is as weird as you’re making it sound. Could he stay healthy? Was he able to sprint like he once had? Did his leg fully recover? In 2001 yes his times weren’t as good, he did run top 3 in a ton of races. Again drugs could be a part of this, but it feels like confirmation bias to have a very random set of events as your puzzle pieces to him doping.
In that period, track could give a big amount of money for the best specialists. Appearance for many competitions could be about 50,000 USD, in the case of a WR attempt, and, for example, Daniel Komen tried WR in different events several times, during his 3 crazy seasons (1996-97-98), that at the end went to burn him.
Looking at WR as priority, organizers put together the best possible field of runnes, without forgetting the incentive of IAAF (50,000 USD, after becoming 100,000) and of the Companies (Nike and Adidas).
In this panorama, also pacers were well paid. I remember a WR of Moses Kiptanui in Zurich, when Eliud Bargnetuny was paid 12,000 USD for pacing till 2000m (more than the prize for the winners of a DL, today).
Together with this fact, we need to accept the idea that there were talents stronger than the athletes of today.
Today there is not a Daniel Komen around, there is not a Moses Kiptanui, and there are not Hicham El Guerrouj, Haile Gebrselassie and Kenenisa Bekele trying WR pacing all the best Kenyan to their best Personal Performances.
El Guerrouj can explain the national record of Noah Ngeny, for example. You don't think that, if today there is EG trying to run under 3'26", Asbel Kiprop and Silas Kiplagat can run faster than Ngeny ?
In 1998 I went Kenya for the first time. I alreay gave training plans to some of the best in the World (such as Wilson Boit Kipketer in steeple), but really I was not part of their local activity, and I din't know the local situation.
When I went there, I saw incredible Young talents everywhere, without any training plan, able to run fast only because they ran fast in their training. No technical strategy, no advanced methodologies, only hard training (not Always correct) alternated with long periods of total rest.
Marathon was not a factor, apart the Group of Gabriele Rosa, and never involved the best runners.
The idea was to move to Marathon after realizing there was no more the ability to be competitive on track : Marathon as last choice, when the engine was already burnt, and the body structure consumpted.
I remember in 1998 one athlete already 42 years old came to me completely drunk, very much swollen for alcool, asking a training plan because he needed money. I wrote some stupid simple plan of a small piece of paper, only for becoming free from the disgusting presence of this man.
I went back Kenya after 45 days. One man slim, without any signal of alcool, came to me thanking and telling me : "I did everything, now I'm ready for a Marathon". This was the same athlete of before : went to Rome Marathon, and bettered his PB with 2:11:09. This athlete was William Koech, many times in Kenyan Team for WCCCh, very big talent without any education, wasting the big part of his money for drinking....
Kim McDonald was the first (thank also to the action in Kenya of Moses Kiptanui) to give education to the athletes of his management, and this fact produced big difference in their results.
At the end of the discussion, I think there is nothing strange that the Kenyan records are still from that era.
The three main reasons :
1) Really great talents (Kiptanui, Ngeny, Komen...)
2) Very fast races (because EG, Gebrselassie and Bekele)
3) Interest of the organizers to create Always the best opportunity for running fast.
Today, we can find the same reasons for understanding the boom of the Marathons.
