Every kenyan track distance record set during EPO boom!

Those are also the years of the heydays of McDonald's.

Salty fries = running success?

Whose Explanation Is It Anyway wrote:

There is nothing to explain there. If you think EPO testing slowed down times in 2000-2001 then tell me why Lagat ran 3:26 in 2001.

lol

you didn't think before you posted that did you

So, outside of the steeplechase, Lagat's 3:26 1500m from 2001 is Kenya's newest distance world record on the track.

If you think of distance running as 1500m and up.

Renato, much thanks for your contributions in multiple threads over the past few days. Always fun to read.

Being single with no kids and coaching full time, I must say that coaching in Africa sounds interesting. Certainly it is different culture than America and would be challenging for a foreigner.

With that being said, what sort of coaching opportunities exist in Kenya? It sounds like there are a lot of raw athletes that can't quite make it into the top training groups, but maybe are being overlooked.

The story of William Koech is priceless!

Star wrote:

So, outside of the steeplechase, Lagat's 3:26 1500m from 2001 is Kenya's newest distance world record on the track.

If you think of distance running as 1500m and up.

Nope, Moses Mosop 25000 and 30000

Star wrote:

So, outside of the steeplechase, Lagat's 3:26 1500m from 2001 is Kenya's newest distance world record on the track.

If you think of distance running as 1500m and up.

correct

and the fact that all those times coincided with the period when EPO was undetectable isn't suspicious in the slightest

not

Herb Hoove wrote:

Nope, Moses Mosop 25000 and 30000

track.. not road

look here! wrote:

Herb Hoove wrote:

Nope, Moses Mosop 25000 and 30000

track.. not road

Those were on the track, genius.

look here! wrote:

track.. not road

The idiots are rife on LetsRun today

coach..... wrote:

1000m. 1999

1500m. 2001

mile. 1999

2000m. 1998

3000m. 1996

2. miles. 1997

5000m. 1997

10000m. 1997

blatant EPO

discus....

How many different athletes are those? Three?

These are the reasons:

the internet

faster recovery runs

gadgets

they simply started training harder

Yup, they beat NOP to it by about 20 years.

Africans are genetically programmed not to cheat and cheating doesn't work with them anyway even if they tried to. The gene that provides that little advantage is the one 4 down and 3 from the left of the one that says that a tailwind in a marathon is not beneficial.(the one Ryan Hall doesn't have). Renato taught me that one.

While all the pro cyclists were smashing things up in the Europe with naughty stuff, the Africans (with their Italian agent/coaches/doctors) were smashing things up on the distance running scene as clean as a whistle.

It's actually quite a lovely story, some of those dodgy agents/coaches/doctors were formally involved in cycling and did some naughty stuff involving PEDs, but when they started getting involved with running, they decided that they wouldn't do naughty stuff anymore and started doing everything cleanly and fairly.

I certainly believe it.

a bunch of shady characters from Europe and ex doping doctors turn up in africa

a new undetectable superdrug has gone mainstream

a whole bunch of africans suddenly light up the track obliterating world records

yes, nothing suspicious about that

totally believable... wrote:

a bunch of shady characters from Europe and ex doping doctors turn up in africa

a new undetectable superdrug has gone mainstream

a whole bunch of africans suddenly light up the track obliterating world records

yes, nothing suspicious about that

Absolutely correct.

These dodgy doctors only went for the change of scenery. The fact that they could redeem themselves by making lots of money by of course not doping Africans to victory was a wonderful by-product.

Maybe they knew, just like Canova, that doping didn't work on clean, smiley Africans, so they simply wouldn't be tempted to go back to their former ways.

coach..... wrote:

logic tells me there is a clear link between the performances from 1994-2008

and EPO-CERA

the performances and drug availability/lack of testing almost totally overlap

didn't Bekele and Dibaba suddenly get injured in 2009 when the biological passport was introduced?

Absolutely spot on.

The idea that many Kenyans (and indeed athletes from other countries all over the world) did not take EPO in the period between 94 and 2000, when there was no test, is totally absurd. See what was happening in cycling in same era.

The more people took it, the more others would realise what was going on and jump on the bandwagon to keep up.

Slight dip in performance around 2000, when the first (pretty useless) test came out, but normal services resumed once the athletes realised the test was crap. The next dip in overall performances appeared around 2006, when the new improved test came out and the biological passport followed.

As much as I respect the work and superior training knowledge of Mr Canova, the idea that all the greatest (Kipketer, El G, Komen, Geb, Bekele, Ngeny, Lagat, etc) ALL appeared at the same time, when there was an undetectable ped around that was known to vastly improve endurance, is unconvincing and unbelievable.

Maybe one or two of them, but not 7!

As he rightly says, Kenyans are now trained better than they were 15 years ago, yet no one has appeared (with the exception of Rudish, who has only improved Kip's WR by 0.2) in the last 6 years that come remotely close to the exploits of the EPO era. Are we to believe that Kenya no longer has the natural resources of in depth talent across the board from 800 to 10k? Success tends to beget more.

The supposed 'more money around' in the late 90's on the circuit merely supports the idea that many more were using peds IMO. A bigger pay check and prize money is going to result in more athletes (especially those from poor backgrounds) willing to take a risk (although there wasn't really one to take as there was no test for it!) with peds in order to make lots of money in a short space of time. E.g. Ngeny and Komen.

This is human nature. If you know that by taking something that will make you faster and acquire more money, with practically no chance of being caught, then I would suggest the majority would do so. Same for Moroccans, Spanish, etc.

Jeff Wigand wrote:

coach..... wrote:

( note the absence of times from 2000-2001 when EPO testing was introduced yet fast times before and after)

EPO test only introduced at the Sydney Olympics at very end of season. This was always known by athletes. IIIRC, the IAAF weren't bringing the test in until 2001 originally, but the IOC wanted to rush it through and use it at the Games.

ISBN wrote:

As he rightly says, Kenyans are now trained better than they were 15 years ago, yet no one has appeared (with the exception of Rudish, who has only improved Kip's WR by 0.2) in the last 6 years that come remotely close to the exploits of the EPO era. Are we to believe that Kenya no longer has the natural resources of in depth talent across the board from 800 to 10k? Success tends to beget more.

I would say that the current Kenyan 1500m runners would be a qualification to the statement that "no one has appeared....that come remotely close to the exploits of the EPO era".

And as for this list:

"Kipketer, El G, Komen, Geb, Bekele, Ngeny, Lagat"

Rudisha > Kipketer (though I'm more of a Kipketer fan).

Bekele and Lagat are not the same era as the rest. Lagat has won World Championships since EPO tests and biological passports were introduced.

Fast begets fast. If Farah wasn't such a p*ss, we'd have some pretty fast times in recent years, like we see in the 800m and 1500m.

I'm not saying that none of them doped, I'm just saying that your reasoning isn't great. Also I could believe someone running 1:40/3:26/sub 12:40/sub 26:20 clean.

george oscar bluth wrote:

And as for this list:

"Kipketer, El G, Komen, Geb, Bekele, Ngeny, Lagat"

Rudisha > Kipketer (though I'm more of a Kipketer fan).

Bekele and Lagat are not the same era as the rest. Lagat has won World Championships since EPO tests and biological passports were introduced.

Fast begets fast. If Farah wasn't such a p*ss, we'd have some pretty fast times in recent years, like we see in the 800m and 1500m.

I'm not saying that none of them doped, I'm just saying that your reasoning isn't great. Also I could believe someone running 1:40/3:26/sub 12:40/sub 26:20 clean.

Lagat is the same age as EL G. He ran 3:30 in '99. He may have had more success later in his career, but he certainly is of the same era as the others.

For me the EPO era was from 1993/94 - 2006. The test in 2001 was proven to be ineffective (e.g. M. Jones et al) and unreliable (false positives). It was only improved in 2006. Lagat and Bekele ran their fastest times at their main distances before 2006.

Of course there is some overlapping, but all names mentioned had their best years between 93 and 2006. That's 13 years,.. about a typical length of a career these days.