so how do you go from average runner to pro?

lol

anyway I think I have a more specific way to put what I'm wondering about...

I was looking and I see the fast high school kids all seem to start with working on shorter distances. they then get really good at that. then they move up to longer distances if they want to. right?

I never saw anyone who gets to be a really good runner on high volume of slow or moderate running unless they have such a background in faster running first.

now about myself, I do not have any running background from school. my interest is mainly in distances 5k, 10k, half marathon (and marathon etc later). I would like to maximize my genetic potential. I believe I could be really good.

and so I wondered if it matters what strategy I use for training.

I hope I managed to explain this a bit better..

I'm still trying to work this out in my head, but I'll give you an example that in particular got me thinking about this topic.

I know a girl (well she's 33 now) who claims she ran 10:42 3000m when she was 13, on half a year's training. she raced on the track of course. she says she didn't really improve much in the years after that, got 2:18 800m, 4:44 1500m and 10:32 3000m.

then she stopped running by the end of high school. now in the last few years she got back to running. she has 1:26 PR in HM and did around 19min in 5K. but those times from high school would indicate better times right? and I'm pretty sure she can't do anywhere near 10:32 3K now.

her training is like this: she's doing higher mileage now of course than back then.. around 45mpw now. and has some fast-ish sessions, nothing too hard.

I'm also female and I've been training similar to this though a bit less mileage. I'm in sub 1:30 HM shape too. but considering that she got 10:42 in 3K on half a year training ??? I want to know how ???

IF you're not working on a fixed schedule right now and aiming at any particular race, start building a massive base. Spend as much as a year just doing high mileage with some flat out speed and run a few road races every month or so. Don't worry too much about times or do any specific training yet. Once you have a huge base built up and have run a few races to get a sense of fitness and ability, set a goal and work towards that. Maybe you'll run a few halfs in around 1:20 during the year. Set a goal to go 1:15 with a few months for specific training and taper. Obviously this isn't foolproof but basically I would suggest not putting any time constraints on yourself right now and just get in a ton of miles.

wow thanks a lot for your reply :)

I don't know if you saw my previous post because you posted just 3 mins after that one. anyway, I probably sound a bit confused with that one. but yes I am :) and would like to understand this better.

I was posting about how this girl got her vo2max so high and in such little time. even though later she didn't prove to be world champion level talent.

is that some very specific kind of speed work? that only works if you can handle it?

anyway... this massive base approach can work just as well as that "high school fast run" approach? this just takes more time, then? if the end result is better then I don't mind taking more time with the training, of course.

1:15 HM? wow that would be kinda more than I ever hoped for, as I'm female. though of course I'm not setting limits, I really can't know my potential until I try, right?

I agree with Swag Lord's advice: get out there and build a base, gauge your ability, set goals, then make your workouts more specific. I think asking for a 1:20 is a bit much at this point for you (assuming you're in 1:27-1:30ish shape right now). The difference between 1:20 and 1:15 is even bigger in terms of ability. But the key is consistency over the weeks, months and years of training.

A substantial part of VO2 Max is genetic, but in general, interval workouts at or near your VO2 Max (close to max heart rate) for a 2-3 minutes at a time is what the experts say helps to build VO2 Max most effectively. These type of workouts will help you with general power and speed for shorter distances (and the end of longer races), but are better suited for 5K and shorter races. Not that you should avoid them all together--just that longer, sustained runs at hard and "comfortably hard" paces (~45 mins to 1 hr or so) are better 1/2 marathon training and should be a larger focus.

Ultimately, everybody is different and needs a different amount of speed work, distance work, etc. based on natural talent and ability to recover. For someone in his or her mid- to late 20s, in my opinion (I'm 28 and have been running since I was 12), more, easy distance is superior to less, difficult distance--specifically when we're talking 10+ mile races.

Good honest work.

WOW A WHOLE YEAR???!!!

Swag Lord wrote:

Spend as much as a year just doing high mileage with some flat out speed and run a few road races every month or so.

try 5+ of consistent training before you start running anywhere close to your potential.

thanks. :)

you say you've been running since you were 12. did you have that kind of initial fast improvement in shorter distances that I talked about?

in your opinion, would you agree that it doesn't really matter if someone started working on the shorter distances first and then move up to the longer distances, VS started on longer distances and get faster after building a big aerobic base?

or were you trying to say that this depends on what kind of genetics someone has, and/or it depends on age?

yeah I don't know where the 1:15 number came from, maybe he thought I was a guy :) not that I wouldn't mind getting that fast :) I'm really not setting concrete limits for myself. just want to maximize ability.

btw yeah I started running in my late 20s but I find I improved most off intervals that are about 10K pace and faster. so that also got me thinking after hearing about the girl I used in the example above..

mmmm 5 years that sounds good, I might get pretty far, then :D

not questioning what you said but I'd like to know, what sense do you make of the example then? this girl who got pretty fast on half a year of training at age 13? maybe she exaggerated and it was a year or two instead of 6 months but I'm pretty sure it wasn't a long time.

...is that girl's example to do with focusing on getting speed for 800m/1500m? I think those were her main events on the track

I recall reading that one can develop speed pretty fast.. is that it then?

I've never tried to work on my speed, just played with these 5K/10K paced intervals for a few weeks in two seasons and got improvements.

what happened to patience? wrote:

try 5+ of consistent training before you start running anywhere close to your potential.

Depends on the distance. Depends on our age. Depends on your innate talent.

Some runners are super-gifted demi-gods (like 98% of LetsRun posters). Some are very young and still growing, and at a stage where adaptations take hold relatively quickly. A large amount of dedication through these years, combined with lots of innate talent, is what you will see in almost every short- and mid-distance professional.

For the rest of us, yes, it takes years to build any kind of platform that you can build any kind of real competitive results on. There's a reason most successful ultra-runners are aged 30, 40, and above: it's a distance where work, and borderline insanity, can outvalue the inborn talent after years of dedicated training.

Travel back in time and pick your parents wisely.

infmacs wrote:

...is that girl's example to do with focusing on getting speed for 800m/1500m? I think those were her main events on the track

I recall reading that one can develop speed pretty fast.. is that it then?

I've never tried to work on my speed, just played with these 5K/10K paced intervals for a few weeks in two seasons and got improvements.

There are always going to be exceptions to any general principle.

Stop looking for shortcuts. Stop looking for a magic speed pill.

It takes hard work and dedication. Years of it. Some people will put in the exact same amount of work as you, and because of the talent they were born with, will end up being way better than you. That can be frustrating. But you'll improve more than some others, and way more than those who aren't trying.

Everyone has different potential. The greatest thrill comes not from breaking some arbitrary time or distance goal.

The greatest thrill in the world comes from maximizing *your* potential.

some people just aren't talented enough to ever be good at the shorter distances

when you get to 10k/HM/marathon the talent gap is narrowed and work/mileage is much more important

Realism wrote:

some people just aren't talented enough to ever be good at the shorter distances

when you get to 10k/HM/marathon the talent gap is narrowed and work/mileage is much more important

True to some extent, but all the work and mileage in the world isn't going to get the average person to run a 2:05 marathon. Being an elite runner requires a very specific set of genetic traits that the majority of us do not possess.

The same way you get to Carnegie Hall.

Just like some people are born to be sprinters, some people are better at running middle distances (fast twitch)and some people are better at running long distances (slow twitch). The two types of distance runners need to train differently. Some people need to learn to run fast and others need to learn to run far.

If you search fast and slow twitch on here you can learn more.

I'm gonna be totally honest here. OP, you're high on uppers. Or drunk. I don't care either way. But you are most definitely either one of those two - watch how you come across.

To your question, the advice about building a base is so sound, it's VERY sound. Avoiding injury is your number one priority. The best way to do this without a base, is to build your base. Your physiology takes longer than you think the adapt. By an order of magitude. Ligaments, tendons, capillary beds, cardiac ejection potential... these things take time. A lot of time. If you go too hard, too early, you get injured, you don't train, your fitness falls, you set yourself back. Build massive mileage first. Speed train, strength train, run hills. But your aim is mile, after mile, after mile.

It will be boring. It will take all your self-control not to just run fast as you can for three weeks straight until you get plantar fasciitis and can't train at all for like 120 days straight. After your build up to, what? How good do you want to be? 30 miles a week? 40? Many people train so much more. Choose your goal. When you reach what you see to be massive mileage, drop that mileage and ran fast, on your iron tendons and titanium ligaments.

Then, my Padawan, you will be fast.

thank you for the reply. I've heard about fast/slow twitch before. I don't really know which kind of runner I am.

here's what I do know:

- without any training, compared to other untrained people, I was best at distances that are typically run at around 95-100% VO2max. 5-15 minutes of hard running.

- I am not naturally good at 100m sprint

- also not naturally good at distances longer than 3K, I had to train to get better stamina for distances longer than that.

- I could always however go very long without training, just at a very slow pace until I started training.

- I improve best on a schedule with hard fast runs at around 5K/10K/LT paces with the rest being very easy runs plus maybe once a week a bit of work at moderate pace, if I can fit it in the schedule.

I don't know what all that means for my muscle fiber type. if anyone can give a realistic guess from this, I will be glad to hear it!