What about Andrew Bumbalough? Why exactly was he DQ'd?

Track needs more team tactics. Anyway, Hutchings commented that the fast pace played race into Rupp's hands as could derail Lagat's kick.

yipee wrote:

I think USATF did mix up Hill and Bumbalough, so he should be reinstated, but Bumbalough and their team need to cut the crap. He was there to pace and had zero intent to compete, so there is no need to get all high and mighty and make believe that they are upset with the DQ, for whatever the reason. It completely made no difference to the Schumacher group, but they'll milk this as much as possible. I have no problem with team tactics, just own it boys.

Again, it seems the Schumacer group races to beat the NOP, which seemingly is their one and only goal. The NOP runs to beat the world. Unfortunately, their seams to be a Nike team trying to derail the NOP them whenever they can. Weird.

Bumbalough isn't exactly a hack runner. So anyone who grabs the lead at a NOP race to keep the pace honest should be DQ'd if not approved by Salazar in advance?

Part of racing is being able to adapt to all variables. Salazar wanted this to be an 8:05 race where Rupp runs a 26 last lap for the win.

I assumed they hadn't appealed since Bumbalough said he only learned about it after the meet when he spoke to Lomong. That's even more egregious if they appealed and the officials still upheld it. Literally the only potentially sanctionable moment in that race was the Hill-Rupp contact so I assumed he got DQ'd in a case of mistaken identity.

I assume they wouldn't appeal on the grounds of mistaken identity, as Hill may then be DQ'ed.

Bumbalough is a great runner, in fact. I even made it clear in my post that I have no problem with team tactics. Just don't act like Bumbalough was there for any other reason than to be a rabbit. Especially when he starts making it sound like he was disappointed he got 8th. Give me a break. I think taking it out quick was a calculated mistake on Schumacher's part, honestly. He watched the tape from Albuquerque from two years earlier and Galen died at an honest pace at altitude.

I don't think with the likes of Hill, Lagat, Lamong (or even Blankenship for that matter) in the race, Alberto wanted the pace to be slow. Galen was just ready for the altitude this time. Just weird that Schumacher's Nike group is centered around beating Nike Oregon Project.

yipee wrote:

Bumbalough is a great runner, in fact. I even made it clear in my post that I have no problem with team tactics. Just don't act like Bumbalough was there for any other reason than to be a rabbit. Especially when he starts making it sound like he was disappointed he got 8th. Give me a break. I think taking it out quick was a calculated mistake on Schumacher's part, honestly. He watched the tape from Albuquerque from two years earlier and Galen died at an honest pace at altitude.

I don't think with the likes of Hill, Lagat, Lamong (or even Blankenship for that matter) in the race, Alberto wanted the pace to be slow. Galen was just ready for the altitude this time. Just weird that Schumacher's Nike group is centered around beating Nike Oregon Project.

I don't think it's too weird that they want to beat them as it usually means spots to international teams and maybe a USA title in beating Rupp. However I do agree that it sometimes feels like it's for more than that and I think that actually hurts them. Rupp focusses on the big prize, yet respects his fellow competitors for their abilities. I'm sure that he doesn't want to lose to any of them including Lagat, but he is not training with that as his primary focus, he's training with the top runners in the world as his focus and then has to make sure he can beat all or almost all of the top runners the US throws at him as a housekeeping item, to get the opportunity to go against the best in the world.

It has often felt that any Shumacher "victory" over Rupp is celebrated by that group and that is unfortunate because it's not Rupp's fault that he runs at such a high level and sets the bar, and ulitmately it shouldn't be such a focal point of guys who are running at 7:35/13:00/27:00 level. I could understand celebrating a victory over someone like Bekele of Farah, but Rupp is just a guy trying to get to that level, not at that level. Sure you can want to beat Rupp and run to do so. But what if you respected him for the runner he is and took a win in stride and focussed on running consistently at that level, like you deserved to be there.

They have an enormous pool of Talent with Derrick, Jager, Hill, Solinsky, Teg, Lomong and others. I think I'm forgetting some other quality 10K guys they have unless they are no longer on the team. Is Fernandez still there? The point is that with that group of talent, if they just focussed on being great and running to a certain level internationally as opposed to how they stack up to NOP I think they could get to that next level that they are right on the cusp of.

Lastly, does anyone have a link to the mens indoor 3000?

yipee wrote:Just don't act like Bumbalough was there for any other reason than to be a rabbit.

You're making stuff up. Jerry's guys knew they couldn't outkick Lagat after seeing him in the 2000 at Millrose so they set an honest pace to narrow the field and try to burn off his kick. If you watch the LRC post-race interview with Bumbalough he explains the thinking and says the altitude got him at the end.

There's nothing illegitimate about that. Every time there's a slow, tactical, kickers race the top guys like Bumbalough, etc. get ripped for not setting an honest pace and giving the race to Lagat and the people who aren't as fit. Bumbalough, Lomong, and Hill tried to avoid that, and it didn't work, but it's a perfectly valid tactic to take a race out hard.

As for Rupp, it's a tactic that HELPS Rupp. He's as fit as Jerry's guys, not as good a kicker as Lagat, doesn't like to lead, and can run off of an honest pace. It was better for Rupp than a slow pace where everyone was in it at the end.

Reading Jerry's guys tactics as being anti-Rupp is delusional and paranoid - which may describe Salazar, but isn't supported by the facts.

Everyone is speculating for the most part.

First, nothing can defend Salazar's actions last weekend. I'm sure he does feel that Schumacher's group is "against" Rupp, but he could have handled it professionally behind the scenes.

Second, Bumbi admitted in the interview on TV that he pretty much shut it down the last 1K. "Honest effort" rule?! I don't see that as "interference," but maybe someone more familiar with the rules has another take.

Third, to say Schumacher's guys aren't anti-Rupp is probably false as well. There is obviously friction between the two groups and, although I'm certainly not defending Salazar's behavior, there got to be more to the story that led to Salazar going ape-sh*t crazy. Do you think Bumbi would have outleaned a non-NOP athlete in the 5000 prelims at the '12 Oly Trials? Maybe so, but it certainly seemed to reflect the rivalry between the 2 groups.

At minimum, Salazar created a lot of traffic on Letsrun!

yipee wrote:

I think USATF did mix up Hill and Bumbalough, so he should be reinstated, but Bumbalough and their team need to cut the crap. He was there to pace and had zero intent to compete, so there is no need to get all high and mighty and make believe that they are upset with the DQ, for whatever the reason. It completely made no difference to the Schumacher group, but they'll milk this as much as possible. I have no problem with team tactics, just own it boys.

Again, it seems the Schumacer group races to beat the NOP, which seemingly is their one and only goal. The NOP runs to beat the world. Unfortunately, their seams to be a Nike team trying to derail the NOP them whenever they can. Weird.

The only thing weird is you wanking it to saladbar and rupp.

Go away fanboi

buddy puddy wrote:

Why is the Westminster Dog Classic run better than USATF nationals?

Less bitches involved.

* wrote:

I think this is it wrote:

Isn't pacing illegal in these races?

No

Pacing is rare because you have to qualify for a championship and those that qualify want to place as high as they can so they are rarely willing to sacrifice themselves.

Nothing prevents an athlete from leading at a fast pace and nothing prevents them from dropping out at any point.

He didn't have to finish but Bumbi finished and he wasn't lapped.

Now - if he let himself get lapped and then started pacing, that would be against the rules.

This is the way I understood it as well. Can anyone do some digging and find the USATF rules on this?

If the above is true, then Jerry's group earned the right to use team tactics, by qualifying several athletes in the race. Kenyans and Ethiopians use these tactics all the time at the world level, and they would be idiots not to.

buddy puddy wrote:

Bumbalough isn't exactly a hack runner. So anyone who grabs the lead at a NOP race to keep the pace honest should be DQ'd if not approved by Salazar in advance?

Part of racing is being able to adapt to all variables. Salazar wanted this to be an 8:05 race where Rupp runs a 26 last lap for the win.

Exactly! The runners in the race have the right to run the race however they want. If they want to use team tactics then they have that right. If they want to drop out after setting a hard pace, they have that right. Running is one of the few objective sports left, it needs to be left alone.

yeh, and a 737 guy can go out fast at a nat'l championship, even if it is at altitude. I don't think we can say categorically that bumbi was a pacer and a pacer only. he could have been going for the win - he's a contender.

I'm not expert in this, but just looking at the USATF rule book, it is clear that a lapped competitor cannot pace another runner: Rule 144.3a defines illegal assistance as "Pacing in running or walking events by persons not participating in the event, by competitors lapped or about to be lapped, or by any kind of technical device other than those permitted under Rule 144.3i."

There's nothing prohibiting a competitor from pacing a teammate or another competitor. Although the runner doing the pacing could be disqualified if the officials determine he was running to lose or "coach another competitor." Rule 144.4 says that: "In a track event, any competitor competing to lose or to coach another competitor shall forfeit the right to be in the competition and shall be disqualified."

That has been my question concerning Bubmi's DQ. Why would Bumbi resolve himself to pace setter if he didn't think he could qualify? He is no slouch for sure. Is Hill so much better than Bumbi that he would sacrifice his own race to help Hill qualify?

Doesn't make sense?

It's pretty simple. Bumbi thought he could qualify, just like he thought he could qualify last year for Worlds off a slow pace, and he thought he'd qualify in 2012 for the Olympics. He is a competitor and runs to win. He thought this was his best chance, I'd guess. He'd just run a 7:37 and a 4:57 (3:54ish mile equivalent) in the previous two weeks. Lagat had just outkicked him last week. Hill outkicked him badly the week before that. They were both in the race. There are two slots for Worlds. Last summer when the 5000 was slow, Hill beat Bumbi. When it was fast, Bumbi beat Hill. Basically, Bumbi had every incentive to push the pace and little to gain by letting it lag. He's tried that in the past and it's never worked out. Probably wouldn't have worked at sea level either, but clearly the altitude killed him.

WOW!

Just watched the race. Most absurd DQ ever! Bumbi literally did nothing wrong. Based on his DQ every single athlete competing at USA's should have been DQed. So insane. Way more ridiculous than the GG DQ (which was also ridiculous) but since Bumbi didn't win it isn't called out like GG's DQ. So crazy. This REALLY needs to get protested just as much as the GG DQ and needs to be overturned, otherwise it sends the message that Salazar can get any athlete DQed for no reason at all, and as long as they don't win and no heat is put on USATF then Salazar gets his way.

The only thing that did to Rupp is when he was moving up in the pack as Bumbi started slowing down Hill, moved quickly out and cut Rupp off a little so as not to get stuck behind Bumbi when everyone moved around. If it had caused Rupp to fall then Hill shoulda got a DQ, but Rupp just stumbled for a step so no way Hill should have even gotten DQed, let alone Bumbi who had no contact with anyone.

And in fact, Lagat did the exact same thing to Hill later in the race, Hill was on the outside moving up to take the lead and Lagat cut him off, Hill just didn't stumble for a step like Rupp had earlier.

So we have one instance where Bumbi is leading, Rupp is passing, and Hill moves quickly out to pass Bumbi but cuts Rupp off in the process. For this Bumbi some how gets DQed. Then we have the exact similar situation where Rupp is leading, Hill is passing, and Lagat moves quickly out to pass Rupp but cuts off Hill in the process. So by USATF's logic from the first cut-off where the leader Bumbi got DQed for no reason, in the second incident the leader Rupp should have gotten DQed for no reason as well.

Really dumb weekend for Salazar and USATF. Salazar threw a hissy fit at another coach for no reason in front of a bunch of people, made a ridiculous DQ protest against GG, and fabricated out of thin air a DQ against Bumbi and both times was able to pressure USATF into accepting the DQ, and only once due to tons of heat on them did USATF do the right thing and reverse the decision.

I can't believe he thought that would do anything but let 3-4 guys cruise behind him, unless he thought he was in 7:30 shape in an honest race and nobody else was. I really doubt that. I think Jerry sat him down and said 'take one for the team on this, you'll have your chance later." They were hoping to run Rupps legs off and have lopez and hill have some finish left that at least one of them could qualify if Rupp was flat like previously. It was a good plan and Hill was very close. I don't know if what Bumbi did is legal or not because I don't know the full nature of the "honest effort" rule.

I do get why you have the rule, so that he can't go out crazy have Rupp go with him and then drop out and have his mates come up from behind and potentially take over Rupp. That would be cheating of course. This was a bit borderline but being that Lomong and Hill sat first behind him it seems no harm was done. Kind of in the gray area only in that Hill and Lomong probably knew that Bumbi was going to take it at a pace he couldn't hang onto from the start, wheareas nobody else would have known that and had to make a gametime decision on how to respond.

There is one remote possibility that they thought Lagat and or Rupp may spot them some distance, not believing that the pace could keep up and then work hard too late to catch up to them. This is highly unlikely and probably a much better strategy at sea level since they would need to go out faster than that to make Rupp/Lagat spot them, and at altitude that pace would indeed be suicidal.

This is all really interesting speculation about what happened, but the issue still remains of why he was got DQ.

Even if he was pacing illegally, how did they prove it? I would be the first to put down arms if USATF had transparency on their decision.

All of the discussion here on different viewpoints goes to show that we can't prove a damn thing. Therefore, how the heck did USATF find enough evidence to prove him guilty?

And I personally don't buy the theory they mistook him for Hill. I guess I have more faith in peoples' intelligence and not being stupid enough to make a mistake like that, but hey, I've been wrong before.