Question about muscular fatigue during later stages of marathon (Canova or others)

One time I was out on a long run the day after visiting the mediteranean buffet. Well, it was a bad idea. I was wearing my favorite blue running shorts when the extra trips to the buffet line started talking to my abdomen. The pain was so bad I knew I'd never make it to a toilet. It became rapidly clear that this was NOT going to end well! I held on tight, but ended up filling up my favorite running shorts with a massive load of runny rectal refuse. The smell was horrible, and I ended up getting chafed as I ran back home in my soiled shorts. The mess was so bad I had to throw the shorts away.

That's my story of "running out of fuel".

drb wrote:

What workouts can be done? Lots of short reps? 40 x 200 at 3k-5k pace with short rest? 30 x 100 meters at 800 pace?

Why not do more marathon paced training?

I do do marathon pace training.....6 x 2 miles, 4 x 3 miles, 3 x 5 miles, etc. Harder long runs, etc... I'm looking at what I can add to help.

drb wrote:

I do do marathon pace training.....6 x 2 miles, 4 x 3 miles, 3 x 5 miles, etc. Harder long runs, etc... I'm looking at what I can add to help.

Try 1 x 12 and then progress to 1 x 14 then 1 x 16. Do a 2 - 3 mile warmup before hitting marathon pace.

drb wrote:

I do do marathon pace training.....6 x 2 miles, 4 x 3 miles, 3 x 5 miles, etc. Harder long runs, etc... I'm looking at what I can add to help.

Run more. It's that simple. You're not going to eliminate the fatigue but with the adaptations that come with more volume you'll be able to better mitigate it.

drb wrote:

I do do marathon pace training.....6 x 2 miles, 4 x 3 miles, 3 x 5 miles, etc. Harder long runs, etc... I'm looking at what I can add to help.

Are you doing these workouts at MP? If doing intervals, you should be running at faster than MP. 6 X 2 at MP should be fairly easy workout.

joho wrote:

drb wrote:

I do do marathon pace training.....6 x 2 miles, 4 x 3 miles, 3 x 5 miles, etc. Harder long runs, etc... I'm looking at what I can add to help.

Are you doing these workouts at MP? If doing intervals, you should be running at faster than MP. 6 X 2 at MP should be fairly easy workout.

I'm sorry that I'm not being specific, but the recovery for these workouts a mile moderate. For example: 6 x 2 miles at 5:10-15/mile with 1 mile recovery in 5:45. Maybe I just need more of these types of workouts....in the past I've really only gotten in 1 or 2.

drb wrote:

What can be done in training to limit the muscular fatigue that one would experience in the later stages of a marathon?...from 18 miles on?

Personally I have had this issue in the marathons that I have run. I don't really "run out of fuel", but I feel like I am dealing with muscular fatigue. I'm still able to dig down and run a fast last mile if I have to, but it becomes extremely hard to maintain pace from 18 miles on.

What workouts can be done? Lots of short reps? 40 x 200 at 3k-5k pace with short rest? 30 x 100 meters at 800 pace?

Could this be a muscle fiber type issue as well? I do feel I have a higher ratio of fast twitch fibers compared to most marathoners......

Thanks!

Although I'm not a paleo guy, you can become a paleo guy/low carb guy. You burned stored fat as fuel and have enough for a race a lot longer than a marathon.

true story wrote:

One time I was out on a long run the day after visiting the mediteranean buffet. Well, it was a bad idea. I was wearing my favorite blue running shorts when the extra trips to the buffet line started talking to my abdomen. The pain was so bad I knew I'd never make it to a toilet. It became rapidly clear that this was NOT going to end well! I held on tight, but ended up filling up my favorite running shorts with a massive load of runny rectal refuse. The smell was horrible, and I ended up getting chafed as I ran back home in my soiled shorts. The mess was so bad I had to throw the shorts away.

That's my story of "running out of fuel".

I grew up in Northeast Ohio and around there, exists a place called Quaker Steak & Lube. They have the most ungodly spicy hotwings ever created by man. You literally have to sign a disclaimer before you are served them, because they can easily blister your mouth when you eat them. Me, being the hardass that I am, happily sign the waiver and proceed to chomp down 6 of these wings. I get my name up on the wall for having done it, and leave the place in pain, but feeling proud.

The next morning I decide to go for my morning 5 mile run along Mayfield Rd. (some of you in the cleveland area may know where this is). Its a well traveled area, lots of cars most of the day driving along. Residences with front lawns, trees etc.... your typical suburban setting. Well I get the familiar gotta sh*t real bad stirring in my abdomen about halfway into the run, and its an out and back run, so I'm not that close to home. It didn't seem too bad initially so I just kept running, and thought I'd make it just fine. Well those nuclear hotwings from the night before had a different idea. I swear the next tenth of a mile was out of a science fiction movie. The wings moved through me like a f***ing bullet train through the Chunnel and I knew I wasn't going to make it. I stop to walk, and look for a place to hide and let loose, but the particular area I was in just had houses with big front lawns and no particular landscaping. At this point, the alien in my a*s was sprinting for the finish line, and it was so bad, I couldn't even move, lest I shit myself right there on the sidewalk in front of a hundred soccer moms sipping their morning lattes. I shuffle step onto the lawn of a particular house in a feeble attempt to make it to the bushes directly in front of their house, but it was too late. Feeling the overspiced rocket of mud in my a*s about to burst forth, I quickly and frantically pull down my running shorts to clear the path. I was about a half second too slow, as I do this the sh*t blows out of my a*s, into my shorts which are now around my ankles, all over my hands, running watch, and forearms, and some onto the front lawn of this house.

So here I am, 9am, people driving by, slowing down, honking with a shocked and disgusted look on their face.....and I'm standing in the middle of someone's front lawn with nothing on me except my sh*t riddled running shorts.

Thank god I had a t-shirt on that morning because it was my only saving grace. I leave the shorts in the middle of the lawn, take off my t-shirt so that I'm now standing completely butt a*s naked in front of probably a hundred commuters as I wipe my liquid sh*t off my own hands and arms with my t-shirt. Now, I have to get home. So I tie the sh*t stained t-shirt around myself like a loincloth from hell, and f***ing TAKE OFF. I swear to god I ran the last two miles back home faster than Daniel Komen on cocaine.

I didn't bother to return to the house later to clean up the little present I left in the dead center of their yard, I was WAY too embarrassed. I didn't run that route for about a month afterwards. I don't know if all that qualifies as immature or not, but there really was nothing I could do. Thankfully I live a far far way from there now, and I will never eat those godawful wings at Quaker Steak and Lube again.

Yeah...a race much slower than a marathon too.

A well trained marathoner is running at a high percentage of VO2max. Fat metabolism requires more oxygen than carbohydrate metabolism. That's an indisputable fact of chemistry. It's simply not possible to maintain the same speeds if you're depending on fat. It may be fine for cycling or ultrarunning, but unlike almost every other athletic endeavor, the marathon has you very close to redlining for over 2 hours.

To be honest, and I don't want to be flip, but this is how marathons are supposed to feel, and you deal with it by being tough. It takes a different kind of mental discipline than shorter races. It's never really excruciating, but it's very, very tough, and the worst part is knowing that you need to keep doing it for another 45 minutes. Long, hard MP runs on tired legs are good practice. You can't be fresh for all your workouts when you're training for the marathon.

you need to be more specific with the sort of muscular fatigue you are being limited by.

are not able to maintain posture/form?

not able to maintain pace?

not able to maintain focus?

here's the thing, if you are truly racing you will/should find it "extremely hard" to maintain pace the last 30% or so of a race.

what is your standing broad jump and vertical jump? that'll tell you where you are relative to most super-slow-twitchers.

go out 1 minute slower through the half. it will work wonders.

Canova's training is in a number of threads and can be found in a running times article. In short, he advocates a marathon specific phase with lots of very long marathon paced workouts and long runs at small percentage under marathon pace. He also advocates a "special block" double where you run 12-13 at MP in the morning, avoid carbs all day and then run another 10-13 in the evening at MP. For Canova it is all about training the body to operate on a combination of fat and muscle glycogen so the runner does not tap out muscle glycogen too early in a race and does not slow when glycogen starts to deplete.

Workouts are things like 4x4k at or below MP with 1k at 90-95% of MP, building up to 4x6k or 3x8k, etc.

10x1k at HMP with 1k rest at 90-95% of MP.

Long runs of 30k at or above MP. 35k at 95% of MP. 40k at 90% of MP.

This is contrary to the prevailing wisdom that you should not try to run that hard during long runs and should not have workouts that are much longer than 8-10 miles because it takes to long to recover. It is also contrary to the prevailing thought that marathoners need to maintain anaerobic fitness because during the latter stages of the marathon, you are working at what feels like an anaerobic effort.

I have used this training for two marathon cycles and had a lot of success. I felt like crap the last few miles, but my legs were responsive and I was able to hold the pace and even pick it up significantly at one of the two.

Thank you

bump

800 dude wrote:

Fat metabolism requires more oxygen than carbohydrate metabolism. That's an indisputable fact of chemistry.

Biochemistry is not your strong point.

Run a lot of 90 to 2 hour runs at a moderate pace, two or three a week is good. Run faster paced runs twice a week, negative split them and finish at fast pace, for example a 4 miler in the middle of the week, and a 2 hour race or semi time trial on the weekend. Negative split them and run hard over the last parts. I ran a hard 2 hours three weeks before my fastest marathon, almost threw up, and then ran faster in the marathon with much more trying conditions.

Reps are too short to give you any strength from 18 to 26 miles.

Not relevant.

Sweet merciful cr*p. This is the best story I've read on letsrun.

Two key workouts will help:

Glycogen depleted long runs -- do a few 18-20 mile long runs in the morning, without eating anything or taking in anything besides clear water. Teaches your body to run on fat, which is what begins to happen at the later stages of the marathon

Long tempo runs -- think 12-16 miles sub marathon pace. I did mine as half-marathons, but they work the same way (and I got free shoes / gift cards)