if lydiard was right, how do we explain ryun

Distance Maniac wrote:

lease wrote:

I would be pleased to see a cite or a link to this information. I have studied Ryun's high school, collegiate, and postcollegiate training in some depth and do not recall a single workout that matched that.

BTW, use the search function for "Ryun" (within the last day) and you should find some other threads that actually have his training listed.

This was a well known workout that has been referenced in his biography, etc. He has also cited doing 40-50x400@70 on a fairly regular basis in HS. These workouts were no secret.

Thanks for your rapid and polite response. I have read The Jim Ryun Story and JR's autobiography and the very extensive listing of his training that once appeared in T&FN's "How They Train."

I am quite familiar with his 40-50 x 440y, which typically were on three minutes run-plus-rest, and I agree that those were no secret. However, in all that reading I never once recall having seen a workout for him of a ten-mile run followed by sixteen (or however many) quarters. So for me, at least, that workout was not "well known"--which is why I asked for a source.

Ryun did intervals year round but when he did massive sessions like 40 x 400 they were fairly slow. You can do aerobic work with intervals. Ryun ran a lot. The specifics aren't totally clear. Lydiard's guys ran a lot. At other times both parties ran faster. It's similar, all training really is. You create overloads and then recover. It's not identical but it doesn't need to be.

hre,true but lydiard said if he'd trained ryun, ryun would still have the record. so obviously the training is different, otherwise, he wouldn't have made the statement.snell himself has said he'd add in an interval session per week - to you!lydiard is the most influential person ever - but he was not 100% right

HRE wrote:

Ryun did intervals year round but when he did massive sessions like 40 x 400 they were fairly slow. You can do aerobic work with intervals. Ryun ran a lot. The specifics aren't totally clear. Lydiard's guys ran a lot. At other times both parties ran faster. It's similar, all training really is. You create overloads and then recover. It's not identical but it doesn't need to be.

Much of Ryun's training was Lydiard influenced. Just because he did intervals all year round does not mean he was training anaerobically all year round. As others have pointed out , Ryun's long interval sessions MUST be predominantly aerobic in nature ; it's just a different way of getting distance covered from Lydiard's sustained steady running.

Timmons was a swimming coach - obviously influenced by Doc Councilman who popularised daily interval workouts for swimmers - the alternative for them is just doing mindless lengths of the pool. Interval work at least made the session more interesting for the swimmers but the effect was the same - building up endurance through long distance work prior to the intensive anaerobic stuff later on. This is basically how Ryun trained!

Most of the interval work given to their athletes by Igloi and Gerschler was also aerobic - especially during the winter months ; high volume , short distance reps , manageable speed. This was to to preclude any heavy oxygen debt being incurred.

Huge mistake to think that all interval work is anaerobic - a mistake shared by many contributors to these pages and , in many of his books , by Lydiard himself.

Maybe Ryun would have been faster under a Lydiard system.

Maybe just an example of individual differences and responses to training

Maybe Snell et al would have run faster under the system Ryun was under

lease wrote:

I am quite familiar with his 40-50 x 440y, which typically were on three minutes run-plus-rest, and I agree that those were no secret. However, in all that reading I never once recall having seen a workout for him of a ten-mile run followed by sixteen (or however many) quarters. So for me, at least, that workout was not "well known"--which is why I asked for a source.

This is correct. The most common session was 440's on 3 minute starts. A three foot high swimming clock was set up 10 yards past the finish line, so that everyone could see it and keep track of their times.

Timmon's program was building up to 40 or 50x 440 during cross country season, tapering for state, then reducing the number of 440's in the spring. By the state meet in May and thereafter, Ryun only ran 8 or 4x 440. Just before his first 3:59, he ran them in 57-55-55-53.

The 440's were not close. Running 50x 440 in 70 in cross country, sometimes in sets of 10, plus the other work they were doing, was not easy. Ryun had a way of building into them that made them easier to handle, and he ran them this same way every time.

Anyway, to answer the OP's question: We "explain" Ryun, and Snell, and Elliott--and Bannister and Hägg and Nurmi, for that matter--by acknowledging that each was sui generis: physical marvels who "chose their grandparents right" and happened to get training routines that brought them, as individuals, to the greatest performances by humans up to their time.

Different things work for different people.

Obviously 40 intervals is a lot (I remember most be more in the 20 range) but look how slow the pace is. That is like 10k+ pace for a 3:55 miler.A quick google turns upWednesday (April 1) [15.5 miles] AM 3 miles - strides PM calisthetics 20x440 @ 71 average pace weights (dumbells @ 33 lbs) 10x440 @ 69 average pace weights (dumbells @ 70 lbs) 10x440 @ 69 average pace weights (dumbells @ 33 lbs) 10x440 @ 67 average pace Thursday (April 2) [14.5 miles] AM 4 miles - strides PM calisthetics warm up 1 mile jog 6x880 @ 2:52 average pace calisthetics 6x880 @ 2:53 average pace calisthetics 6x880 @ 2:44 average pace warm down 1.5 miles jog So yeah that first day is brutual but that second day sounds insane 18x800 until you realise that we are talking 5:40 miles which is easy running pace. It is hard to remember that people liked to do their distance work on the track back then.

Distance Maniac wrote:

lease wrote:

I would be pleased to see a cite or a link to this information. I have studied Ryun's high school, collegiate, and postcollegiate training in some depth and do not recall a single workout that matched that.

BTW, use the search function for "Ryun" (within the last day) and you should find some other threads that actually have his training listed.

This was a well known workout that has been referenced in his biography, etc. He has also cited doing 40-50x400@70 on a fairly regular basis in HS. These workouts were no secret.

asdfaafdafasd wrote:

Obviously 40 intervals is a lot (I remember most be more in the 20 range) but look how slow the pace is. That is like 10k+ pace for a 3:55 miler.

That was about his two mile pace at the time, plus they were run with heavy flats on a cinder track, not so easy.

that second day sounds insane 18x800 until you realise that we are talking 5:40 miles which is easy running pace.

The 880's were usually run in a park, maybe College Hill Park, that had a lot of ups and downs.

Right, it was College Hill Park.

J.R. wrote:

The 440's were not close. Running 50x 440 in 70 in cross country, sometimes in sets of 10, plus the other work they were doing, was not easy. Ryun had a way of building into them that made them easier to handle, and he ran them this same way every time.

I guess that Ryun had a 400m max speed of around 48 secs give or take? Running a 400m in 70s would be around 22 secs slower than his all-out 400m speed, so I imagine that this sort of effort would be relatively comfortable for someone of his ability. Still, 40x440 y on 3 mins represents 2 hours of running assuming they jogged the recoveries.

That is why I kind of hinted a couple months back what if what's his face that ran 2hr pace in training was not a joke? That would explain everything.

[quote]jsduhadshdsaf wrote:

hre,

true but lydiard said if he'd trained ryun, ryun would still have the record. so obviously the training is different, otherwise, he wouldn't have made the statement.

snell himself has said he'd add in an interval session per week - to you!

lydiard is the most influential person ever - but he was not 100% right

[quote][B

Arthur said lots of stuff. He might have been right in this case or he may not have been. We'll never know. The point I'm trying to make is that Arthur preached the need for cardiovascular development. I don't think anyone would argue with him. He had a way he wanted his athletes to develop their cardiovascular systems and it worked.

Timmons had his way of developing the cardiovascular systems of his athletes. It was different that the way Lydiard did it and for all I know, Timmons may never have thought or talked about developing cardiovascular systems. Or he might have. But Ryun got a similar sort of development with those long interval sessions as Arthur's guys got from steady runs.

The OP seems to think that somehow Ryun's success contradicts Lydiard's ideas, that Lydiard was wrong in his ideas about coaching. That's no more true than the idea that Snell's and Halberg's successes contradict Timmons' coaching.

Really?

Mark B wrote:

Much of Ryun's training was Lydiard influenced.

Ryuns typical high school day:

run to school

Janitor let's him in early. Lifts weights for about 90 minutes.

School.

track practice after school.

Runs home.

Sound familiar?

Typical day of 67% of every Kenyon runner we hear about

Business interest wrote:

Sound familiar?

Typical day of 67% of every Kenyon runner we hear about

Really?

Was that his own plan or was there a coach directing him?