800m Training

Did you run xc? 2 workouts a week will be fine. One of them should be geared toward 5k/mile things like 6x800 or 5x1000 and the other workout can be mile/800 things like 8x400 or 5x300. Later in the season make up variations of 100s-400s at 800 pace, like (400, 300, 200, 100, 1, 2, 3, 4). Run 5-6 days a week, 45-60 minutes on non workout days

I wouldnt do interval workouts just yet, maybe some longer 1k or 800 intervals but none of the 200s/400s yet.

I would start with a base endurance phase of at least 35 mpw or so with regular/longer runs at a decent pace ~7:00 or faster depending on your 3200/5k ability. I would throw in one tempo run a week anywhere from 4-6 miles, this should be at a fast and hard pace, not all out but you should get a good workout out of this.

Also, basic lifting and strength exercises, maybe a core/weight circuit as well as flexibility/stretching. Throw in some explosive lifts cleans/lunges for speed, but only once a week at most.

In addition, speed training can be done through strides and infrequent bleacher workouts or short but intense hill sprint sessions. (4x50m all out up a steep incline)

The emphasis should be on building base endurance as well as speed/strength for the season. I would keep it off the track except for maybe the strides.

Speed: 4-6x120-150m or 100m hills FAST/3-5´, could be followed by 15-20´ easy tempo run

Race pace: Short intervals, keeping the HR high enough: 100-200m relaxed/100-200m jog in 45-90secs or 100-150m hills/jog down. Don´t do over 200m @ race pace in this time of year

Over distance: Longer PROGRESSIVE tempo-intervals (not reaching max HR) 800-2000m, first reps slower, active recovery 1,5-3min.

Steady state, sub-threshold 30-45min runs (+wu/cd)

Easy runs (morning runs/shake out evening runs)

Strength training

An example

Mon: rest/easy run

Tue: AM/PM: Speed or race pace + strength + AM/PM: easy run

Wed: easy run

Thu: AM/PM: Steady state + AM/PM: easy run

Fri: easy run

Sat: AM/PM: Over distance + strength + AM/PM: easy run

Sun: Long easy run

Yeah, I've ran 18:03 for my best 5k.

I go against the grain here.

What do you need in base? I think you need to develop two things: the aerobic ability to be able to run hard for 2 minutes; and to put together a plan to be able to sprint fast during track season.

I'm not as convinced as others that counting mileage is the best idea (eg you need >35 miles per week), or doing long, slow runs. I think you get most of your aerobic benefit at around lactic threshold or 5km pace. You might need a few weeks of easier speed running when you start off, but that is the pace to run at in base to get maximum benefit for your aerobic fitness. As you get closer to season, you can increase the intensity and shorten the rest on those intervals, and move to doing them faster with longer rests, for a vo2 max type workout. Or both.

For example, you might do 6-8 x 1km at roughly 5km pace (say 3:40/km for you) on 60-90" rests for an aerobic workout during base, and even continue it as your primary aerobic maintenance session during track season. But as you approach the season, this could move to 5-6 x 1km at 3:15-3:20 pace on 3 min rests. Or do both.

I also think you need to work on your speed in base. Not necessarily sprinting flat out, but doing what you need to to be able to sprint fast (and I mean over 100m) in track season. Preparing your body for really fast sprinting. That is a combination of drills, plyos, strength, flexibility (including hurdle drills), core etc. It might include resistance running (sleds), steps, speed bounding etc.

This is the part that I find is neglected. The traditional distance runner's approach to 800 training is to start longer and slower, and get shorter and faster as you approach your peak. However, I think this neglects the importance of sprinting speed for an 800 runner.

I also think that there can be benefit to some race pace work in base. The Kenyans do diagonals, where you stride the diagnoals of a soccer/football field at about 800/1500 speed, slow jog the sideline, stride the diagonal, slow jog the base line. The slow jog alternates the sideline and base line - if it sounds confusing, just keep turning right or left. The benefit is it gets running relaxed at race speed implanted in your subconscious. It is crucial to run all of these with perfect form and once your form goes during a diagnoals session, stop. Maybe time the occasional one to check you're on the right speed, but focus on good speed while relaxed, over and over. You could do this once a fortnight in base.

Then as you approach your track season, you add in the 800 speed repetitions. You can do these at up to 500/600m. You might do 3 x 550m, but you'd need 6-10 mins rest. And don't neglect the 200/400 training at this point.

So in track season, you could do 4 sessions a week. The aerobic cruise intervals, a vVo2max type session (or a 1500 speed session - say 3-4km of intervals at 1500 pace), an800 speed session plus a 200/400 session. 4 workouts a week (taxing in different ways) and no long slow running.

However the first question is what sort of training tends to work best for you? Everyone is not the same. What sort of 800 runner are you? What are your strengths and weaknesses. What I've suggested might not work for you.

I dont know about 800m i run 50ks but i got a big penis due to my epo use

Dude you're literally in the same spot I was at that time of my career. I ran XC in jr fall for the first time, and ran a best of 17:25 for a reasonable 5k. Then I ran like 10-15 mpw in the winter, which was more than I did previously. I did stuff like lift, and did my runs fairly fast. I ended up running 1:59 flat at the last race of the year. Ballsiest race of my life.

I have never really trained specifically for an event so I am not sure what training is the best for me. I usually just hang with our team's other mid distance guys during workouts (49 400m guy and 1:58 guy. When I ran my PR, I feel like the 500-700m was the hardest part for me. My kick is not as good as I would like it to be.

I think Scott Christensen's system would be appropriate for a guy in your situation. It's firmly based on the Horwill/Coe 5 paces system which is quite proven with results. The Genius of this system is that it really prepares you for a range of distances from 400m to 5k which is perfect for a US High School runner. It's also great preparation for most college programs which do some variant of this kind of system.

Here is Runners Times's 2012 write about Christensen to give you some background about him:

http://www.runnersworld.com/high-school-training/stillwater-system?page=single

You can try to make sense of this presentation to US Track and Field Cross Country Coaches Association but it provides an in-depth presentation of his coaching philosophy and his reasoning behind it:

http://www.ustfccca.org/assets/symposiums/2010/Scott-Christensen_Preparation-Elite-Junior-Miler.pdf

Christensen uses a 12 day cycle but I added 2 extra days of aerobic running or rest (Days 7 and 14) to this so that it's easy to adjust to a calendar. Just pinpoint your racing schedule for next spring and work backwards from the peak meet (hopefully your State meet!):

Day 01: Special 2

Day 02: Tempo

Day 03: Recovery Run

Day 04: Speed Endur.

Day 05: Recovery Run

Day 06: Speed

Day 07: Recovery Run or Rest

Day 08: VO2 max

Day 09: Hills

Day 10: Long Run

Day 11: Special 1

Day 12: Recovery Run

Day 13: Race or Time Trial/Test Run

Day 14: Recovery Run or Rest

The presentation goes into detail as to what each of these workouts means and a sample workout inventory. To figure out your current training paces, I used Greg McMillian's tables (http://www.mcmillanrunning.com/) using your 2:04 mark as the value. Here is what it spit out:

ENDURANCE PACES

Easy Runs 6:14 - 7:09

Long Runs 6:20 - 7:25

Recovery Jogs 7:12 - 7:57

STAMINA PACES

Tempo Intervals 5:20 - 5:34

Tempo Run 5:25 - 5:39

Steady State Run 5:40 - 5:54

Cruise Intervals

1Mi 5:18 - 5:27

1200m 3:57 - 4:04

1000m 3:18 - 3:23

800m 2:38 - 2:42

600m 1:59 - 2:02

400m 1:19 - 1:21

SPEED PACES

400m 1:09 - 1:12

600m 1:45 - 1:49

800m 2:21 - 2:28

1000m 3:02 - 3:11

1200m 3:45 - 3:51

1600m 5:00 - 5:14

SPRINT PACES

100m 0:14 - 0:15

200m 0:29 - 0:32

300m 0:44 - 0:51

400m 1:01 - 1:10

600m 1:36 - 1:45

Note that there is a Race or Time Trial/Test Run on the 13th day of each 14 day microscycle. This is your measure to see how you are responding to training. If your fitness is improving then the workout paces will be adjusted accordingly. This will allow for a progression thats more custom to your current fitness. As for time trial distances, I would alternate between 400m and 1000m. This will help balance out the speed/sprint development and the endurance/stamina when using the McMillian tables. So if the paces for endurance/stamina seem too fast, the 1000 time trial may give a truer estimate to your fitness. Vice versa for the 400m time trial which may give a truer read to your speed. Just keep in mind that you need to take these paces with a grain of salt. After all these are only estimates.

Good luck!

I would just like to comment on a few things, this also goes for the post down below with the McMillan times.

5k time seems way to hard to be treshold pace. I know several guys (and train with them regularly) that tests lactate to make sure they are running the correct intensity. One of the guys is a 14.20 5k guy. For 10x1000m intervals that converts to 2:52 for each. That is probably about 15-20s faster than his treshold pace.

And the McMillan times? That fast for a 2.04 guy? Some of the guys I train with do a lot of treshold and run 1.50/3.45 etc and the intervals pace...thats about what they run their treshold intervals at during the winter!

Hills, fartlek, long run of at least 6 - 8 miles (7:30 pace)

couple of easy 4-5 mile runs @ 7:30-8 pace w/ 150 strides

Good luck! Let us know how you are doing.

Still hoping you'll reply to this Karma Police!

5km pace can be faster than threshold pace for 5km runners. But for an 800 specialist, they're pretty close. A lot of them (800 specialists) wouldn't even know what they'd run for 5km. Each person can test it themselves. If you're doing 6-8 x 1km on 60-90 secs' rest as an (intense) aerobic session to replace a medium to long run, then you can tell you're going too fast if your legs go. I meant to say it's lactic threshold or marginally slower, which each person will have to work out. If your legs are gone after 2 or 3 of them then you've started too fast (and ruined the session). Better to start marginally too slow and build it up as you get used to it.

By the way Peter Coe called 5km pace the sweet spot. He said you can do a lot of aerobic work at that pace to replace big mileage.

I agree you can't do 8 x 1km at 5 km pace on 1 min's rest. As I said, the difference (if any) between threshold and 5km pace depends on the person. Someone without good endurance but with good speed might find 3.30/km pace doesn't kill their legs, but they don't have the endurance to sustain it for 5km. Their threshood pace might be faster than their 5km pace. My point is, if they're an 800 runner, they don't need to be able to sustain that pace for 5km. They only need to be able to run for 2 minutes, or less. They need an intense aerobic fitness. Base helps, esp in getting you ready for the more intense workouts to come, but 5km pace and vVo2max workouts are the best for this IMHO. Those, 800 speed training, 200-400 training, and the strength/core/plyos/resistance work to improve your top speed, that's a great combination for an 800 runner. I think too many 800 runners neglect too much of that and put their emphasis in the wrong spot.

You have received some pretty good responses. There is def some good info here. One important thing is to remember the aerobic conditioning is still a major important piece to 800 training. I have seen alot of high school athletes and even coaches neglect that part. They put too much emphasis on hard 200's and 400's and don't do the easy runs. The most important piece of mid-d and distance running is aerobic development. Just make sure you are getting in some mileage.

Here is something I would normally give one of my 800 kids in the winter, preparing for spring season.

Mon- Easy run- Strides

Tues- Tempo (15 or 20 mins @ threshold)

Wed- Easy run - Strides 4x50m sprints with full rest

Thurs- Easy run

Fri- 10x200's with full rest OR 10x30secs up hill

Sat- Easy run (progression type- Upper Aerobic)

Sun- Easy run - If feeling good, go bit longer.

A few things to remember:

Mix up the tempo. Switch to cruise intervals @ threshold with 60sec rest if you want...5x1k@threshold w/1min rest, 3x1mile@threshold w/1min rest, etc.

After a few weeks, you can change the 4x50m sprints. Do 3x150 sprints. Full rest, stay controlled, very fast.

I would do the 10x200's one week, then the hills the next week. That type of schedule.

Weights and lifting is good. But make sure you have someone who is knowledgeable on what to do. If not, look up some good training on here.

Recovery is good. If you are feeling bad or hurt, take that Sunday off. The easy runs are VERY important, but don't waste your season by getting hurt.

To sum up... Just run kid. Build strength, maintain and even increase your mileage, do a threshold/tempo once a week, work on pure speed improvement, work on speed maintenance, and stay in touch with your 800 speed.

I disagree.

I'm a pure 800m guy, but much better in the 400 than in the 1500m. Treshold and similar doesn't really improve that much with me, compared to speed and 800m workouts.

I can easily hold my treshold pace for 5km, and I don't think I know anyone or have heard of anyone not being able to do that. It seems to me that you think treshold pace is harder than it is. Threshold pace is quite easy. Its not hard doing intervals with a lactate sub 4mmol. You just have to endure it.

"Someone without good endurance but with good speed might find 3.30/km pace doesn't kill their legs, but they don't have the endurance to sustain it for 5km."

I'm not quite sure what you mean with 'kill their legs'. I could do intervals 10 sec faster than my treshold pace, it would be harder and might reduce me until next day but I'm not sure it qualifies as 'killing my legs'. I think almost all 800 runners can keep up their treshold pace for 5km, and longer.

I'd say you're looking at threshold pace from a much more scientific perspective than I am. I am calling threshold pace the fastest you can go without getting lactic in your legs during the run so that you can't sustain the pace - you know, the lactic stuff you get from a hard 400/800? The pace where if you run it for 4 mins you'll get puffed, but not go in the legs, and can back up on short recovery. You can't back up on short recovery on reps that give you lactic buildup in the legs. These workouts/runs are for an aerobic benefit only, without overly taxing your legs. No scientific measurement, it's a feel for each runner. You're probably taking it as about 1 hour pace.

And I think you're assuming all 800 runners train long to short. I guess I'm considering it from the perspective of lower mileage runners, like younger runners. They don't usually sustain a particularly high pace for 5km.

By the way 10 seconds faster per what?

No offence, but then you're using the term wrong. If you think of it in those terms you'll misunderstand a lot of things written about treshold. Personally I use and know several who uses a lactate-machine during workouts.

Yes, I'm talking about it as about 1 hour (or longer if long distance runner) pace. I'm talking 3.5 mmol (lactate).

I'm not assuming all 800 runners train long to short, I don't for example.

Asking me about my treshold pace? About 3.30, I'm crappy at it, and wasted a few years doing it before I learned from a few international coaches that its the wrong way to train for a guy like me. Had almost no progress at either 800 or treshold pace. Altough, the first year I started doing it I went from 2.00 to 1.51 (had ran 1.55 when younger). Thats the reason I kept doing it for several years.

Curiousss wrote:

I'm not assuming all 800 runners train long to short, I don't for example.

Asking me about my treshold pace? About 3.30, I'm crappy at it, and wasted a few years doing it before I learned from a few international coaches that its the wrong way to train for a guy like me. Had almost no progress at either 800 or treshold pace. Altough, the first year I started doing it I went from 2.00 to 1.51 (had ran 1.55 when younger). Thats the reason I kept doing it for several years.

Interested in your experience here.

You said that you are more of a 400/800m type (and not 1500m), so I assume that your 400m and 800m times line up performance-wise but then you drop off from 1500m and then even more at 5k and beyond.

800m is supposed to be 50% aerobic so in theory by increasing your aerobic capacity, that is/was your weakness. So wouldn't really working on your aerobic capacity be important? And the most general ways of doing that are more mileage and tempo runs.

But eventually, after many years, the aerobic capacity is maxed out, or nearly maxed out. (This is the point where a distance runner would benefit from Canova.)