Isn't it naive of us to assume that East Africans would choose not to use PEDs which would help them and their families escape destitution, hunger, and disease out of some high minded ideal that their use would be unfair to the already rich westerners (who likely have easier access to drugs)?
Yes, yes I would. But I'm a drug fiend.
it is not a matter of money, it is about honor, fairness, sportsmanship, and maintaining ones good name.
I would use PEDs simply to do better in my local 10K.
I would not use them if I was a pro who is continuously tested and on the world stage. Better to be a Brian Sell clean than a Ryan Hall on PEDs.
douglas burke wrote:
it is not a matter of money, it is about honor, fairness, sportsmanship, and maintaining ones good name.
I would say that for people in abject poverty, money is a big lure. In Kenya, it does not take all that much to make one "rich" or at least very comfortable.
douglas burke wrote:
it is not a matter of money, it is about honor, fairness, sportsmanship, and maintaining ones good name.
This is what I'm talking about. Do you not realize just how poor Ethiopia is? Can you seriously say that you would value sportsmanship over feeding your eight or nine children? Sportsmanship is a western ideal.
And how could you ever fault someone to taking drugs as a why to escape that life, to bring you family to the west where they can be raised in a relatively equitable and fair society.
Let's talk about this? wrote:
douglas burke wrote:it is not a matter of money, it is about honor, fairness, sportsmanship, and maintaining ones good name.
This is what I'm talking about. Do you not realize just how poor Ethiopia is? Can you seriously say that you would value sportsmanship over feeding your eight or nine children? Sportsmanship is a western ideal.
And how could you ever fault someone to taking drugs as a why to escape that life, to bring you family to the west where they can be raised in a relatively equitable and fair society.
What about the other equally poor Ethiopians who are trying to escape their poverty and support their families through the sport, but are doing it while abiding by the rules of the sport (i.e. cleanly). Do you think it's just that the poor guy who is willing to cheat should reap all the benefits when, in fact, if he had not been using PEDs the other just as poor guy would have received those benefits instead?
luv2run wrote:
douglas burke wrote:it is not a matter of money, it is about honor, fairness, sportsmanship, and maintaining ones good name.
I would say that for people in abject poverty, money is a big lure. In Kenya, it does not take all that much to make one "rich" or at least very comfortable.
Wow, what a shock. A conservative thinks, that in distance running it is more likely that the black east africans are cheating than the good-hearted, pure, white americans. Just so hard to believe you feel that way.
(could you be any more predictable, and a cliche?)
Paula Cliffebar wrote:
luv2run wrote:I would say that for people in abject poverty, money is a big lure. In Kenya, it does not take all that much to make one "rich" or at least very comfortable.
Wow, what a shock. A conservative thinks, that in distance running it is more likely that the black east africans are cheating than the good-hearted, pure, white americans. Just so hard to believe you feel that way.
(could you be any more predictable, and a cliche?)
Please explain where he said Kenyans are more likely to cheat. He just said that money would be a big motivator for people that grew up with nothing. One could easily have this belief and still believe that Americans are just as likely to dope. Money is appealing to everyone, although the very poor may be more entranced by it. Americans, however, could very well be more captivated with the fame and glory that comes with winning.
Americans are taking PEDs and they are not poor, what is your point? Most of the Kenya runners come from lower middle class and low income families, the standard has been set that you can train hard, be discipline and dedicated and you will succeed. If you use PEDs, then you are a dumb poor guy and the other poor guys who do it clean will not want nothing to do with you, you don'tlive in isolation, you live in communties that values hardwork and fairness despite your situation. Why in the world would you want to take drugs and yet you see people around you doing it fair and square? The Kalenjin who most Kenyan runners hail from, put their young man through an initiation series for 2 months, (a way from mum, sisters) where they are taught about honest, hardwork, integrity, respect and honour, it is better be poor and honest than to be rich and dishonest. Kenyan runners train to succeed if they don;t, they will always join the police, the army , the prisons and many other companies where they can run for them ( look at most of the Kenyan runners they run for the police, army or the prisons, if the are not able to breakthrough, they can still support their families) Alot of the Kenyan runners who don't make it to the big leagues will come to the US and compete through scholarships
So what was the motiviation for Lance?
I think you have to realize that PED are not cheap and not really an option for East Africans until they are already competing well on the international stage. Also it seem that taking drugs like this is really against their cultural leaning so its probably unlikely that they are really using them as much as you think. I think its easy for us to sit thousands of miles away from the whole activity and make assumptions but really we don't see the whole picture.
What a complex, yet hypothetical, and extremely specifically limited question. So in this fictitious dichotomy, we have to assume our choice is between destitution, hunger, and disease, for the us and our families, and that choosing PEDs could result in millions of dollars, saving us all.If East Africans are too destitute to buy food and medicine, who is paying for the PEDs? They need a rich investor, or a national infrastructure.If so many East Africans are deciding to use PEDs, how many are getting a positive return on the investment? There is only one winner in each race. Wouldn't this be a false dream for the rest?Do you really think the decision point revolves around how it affects rich westerners?The thing is, so many East Africans have dominated for so long, it's hard to imagine how such a successful long term result involving so many athletes would be funded, if PEDs were a main factor in this domination. In my opinion, this line of reasoning raises more questions than it answers.Who is paying for PEDs?Why only East Africans, or better yet, some specific subsets of East Africans?I'm not sure naive is the right word in this situation, but if you really want to "talk about this" in an intelligent way, you need to bring into the discussion more than mere speculation based on winning. For example, looking at cycling, here you could compare performances before EPO, during EPO, and after EPO testing was introduced, to propose for discussion a connection between EPO and performance.How is it more credible that someone is funding drug regimes for so many East Africans? Show me the money.
Let's talk about this wrote:
Isn't it naive of us to assume that East Africans would choose not to use PEDs which would help them and their families escape destitution, hunger, and disease out of some high minded ideal that their use would be unfair to the already rich westerners (who likely have easier access to drugs)?
uhhhh....yes
Nope but I have been considering using PED's to win my local turkey trot (at least my age group). That would definitely be worth it as they don't have testing and that glory would last forever.
Let's talk about this? wrote:
Sportsmanship is a western ideal.
Cheating for profit is also a western ideal.
What are Ethiopian ideals? What are Nandi ideals?
In some proud cultures, they would rather die than risk dishonor.
Let's talk about this? wrote:
And how could you ever fault someone to taking drugs as a why to escape that life, to bring you family to the west where they can be raised in a relatively equitable and fair society.
What?!? This begs the questions: who took drugs? who, after succeeding, used the fortunes of that success to bring their families to the west?
I understood that successful East African athletes use the money to build houses, schools, tracks, and otherwise pipe it back into their community. They don't attempt to "escape that life" and "bring their families to the west". Are we still in your fictitious scenario? How is it linked to reality? What do you really know about East Africa and East Africans?
There are lots of illegal things I would do to support a family (illegally immigrate to the US from Mexico for example), but this is also immoral and ruins one's reputation as well, so unless there was absolutely no other way for my family to survive I wouldn't do it.
I think it was his own ego.
ukathleticscoach wrote:
So what was the motiviation for Lance?
The whole fictitious false dichotomy scenario just seems so disconnected with any plausible reality.But I'm not so sure immorality, or legality, or reputation factors at all in this "let's talk about this" discussion.And when Mexicans come to the US (did you mean emigrate?), I think they don't break any Mexican laws. I'm not sure they break any US laws either, until they stay more than 90 days, or buy a house, or try to go to work without a work permit. Maybe if they don't have any visa, their presence is unlawful, and they should be sent back to their country. But I know when I went to Tijuana, as a student, I didn't have a passport, visa, (didn't even give it a thought) and certainly did not consult any lawyer, or otherwise seek legal advice. I suppose if I were considered an "illegal", deportation would be appropriate, but not prison.
wat belachelijk wrote:
There are lots of illegal things I would do to support a family (illegally immigrate to the US from Mexico for example), but this is also immoral and ruins one's reputation as well, so unless there was absolutely no other way for my family to survive I wouldn't do it.
I would use PED's if I could have a reasonable guarantee by the doctor that after 5 years of use my health wasn't at risk. Why spend 4-5hours per day training being the best as a junior only to get beaten by athletes on drugs as a senior. All that time and effort for no respect, no results. I'd definately go on drugs and level the playing field.