Lets talk about how much better d3 got this year...

stats? Don't make us look this shit up

My bad.

10k this year top ten under 30, top twenty were all under 30:25

29:23

29:32

29:35

29:37

29:42

29:46

29:48

29:51

29:52

29:58

10k last year 3 guys under 30, Top 20 were only under 30:41

29:37

29:49

29:55

This year top 20 for the 5k

13:57-14:30

5 guys under 14:15, 2 under 14

Last year top 20 for the 5k

14:15-14:36

This progression has been occurring since about 2001 or 2002. Also, when the Internet burst onto the scene. Whether or not that is a coincidence is up for debate. But this pattern has been trending since that time. There has been an increase in the depth of quality.

However, if you go back and study this on a NCAA Division III level you will notice, with only occasional blips on the radar, that it's the SAME 60 schools (out of now 500) that participate at cross country and track & field nationals. Why is that? Same as it has always been: recruiting and development.

Let's take recruiting. It boils down to each coach finding the school's niche and then his/her ability of the to sell that niche. It's rather easy when a school falls into one of three categories: inexpensive (also usually large student bodies), academic prestige, or religious affiliation. The other is tradition. This may or may not tie in with the above three categories.

For example, Haverford is prestige + tradition. Calvin is religious affliation + tradition. North Central is just tradition (so-so academics with relatively high tuition). In other words, it is most impressive what North Central (i.e., Al) accomplishes year-in and year-out. So what you have is of the top 25 names in the 5k/10k are few exceptions to this rule. The coaches from Edgewood, Juniata, Rowan, and Franciscan (maybe getting something started by selling religious affiliation) should be complemented as they are the true anomolies and don't really fit any of above categories for inexpensive or prestigious schools. Actually, it's impressive what any of these school accomplish in Division III. It's pretty well known within the industry (at least coaches, if not administrators) that many of the best recruiters and developers of talent are in Division III.

Now take development. There was a time 15 years ago that a 10:00-kid could develop into a 31:05 college 10k runner. By the way, a 31:05 = 9:10 for 3200m. That's "development". This guy would not only make nationals, but probably be an "All-American" back in the mid-90's. Fast forward 15 years and now a 9:40-kid (typical D3 recruit...used to be a D1 walk on) is developing into a 14:19/30:10 college 5k/10k runner.

You might not see it much on D1 level, but that's because, generally speaking, many of the best "developers of talent" are at these 60 D3 schools. Just spend some time with Tom Donnelly, Al Carius, Don Nichter, Jeff Stiles, Mike Woods, Brian Diemer and you know you've met a great coach in a great situation. It's a formula for success that repeats itself time after time. Again, the fascinating situations are those kids running fast from schools outside the traditional 10% that always run well. Who are the new kids on the block so to speak? Who is recruiting and developing from a position of weakness vs. a position of strength? Recruiting practices are getting better/easier in D3 with increased communication (plus, there are less men's programs and less $ for men in D1). But any way you slice it the best development, from many of the best coaches/teachers, continues to occur in D3.

I personally believe that this occurrence is not an anomaly, but D3 is finally nearing a glass ceiling. The trend started a decade ago and D3 has arrived at its destination. From this point forward, D3 coaches will need to recruit 4:27/9:42 or better kids, then develop them into 4:05/8:53 college runners capable of running 14:19/30:10 in order to be a "D3 All-American". Well done D3! Enjoy "Baby Nationals"! It's the best kept secret in all of cross country and track & field. There's nothing greater than Division III athletics.

Some stats that I posted in another thread but have updated now. I graduated from a D3 school in 2001. The progression of times since then has been otherworldly. If anybody has the comparable stats on the acceleration of D1 performances, I would love to compare them.

Here are the top 3 times from 800 up on the year-end performance lists in 2001. I don't think they include performances from NCAAs, but the weather at NCAAs was garbage that year anyway:

800

1:49.45

1:50.93

1:51.21

1500

3:48

3:49

3:50

5k

14:12

14:29

14:29

10k

30:26

30:27

30:29

Steeple

8:50

9:00

9:02

Here are the top 3 times in D3 for this year heading into the national championship:

800

1:48.64

1:49.45

1:49.89

1500

3:43

3:46

3:47

5K

13:57

13:59

14:09

10K

29:23

29:32

29:35

Steeple

8:56

8:56

8:58

the milder weather this year probably has something to do with this since D III doesn't generally chase times by sending kids to meets in california (though it is strange that nationals is there this year).

I know there is absolutely no love on these boards for d3 distance running ...

There's love for D3 among the real distance runners. Don't let the opinions of a few losers posting under many different names sway you.

Looking at depth, here are the 20th fastest DIII times by year:

800m

2001 1:52.17

2002 1:52.94

2003 1:52.84

2004 1:52.61

2005 1:53.09

2006 1:52.41

2007 1:52.26

2008 1:52.31

2009 1:51.91

2010 1:52.21

2011 1:52.11

2012 1:51.92

1500m

2001 3:54.04

2002 3:53.20

2003 3:54.36

2004 3:53.36

2005 3:53.69

2006 3:53.84

2007 3:53.37

2008 3:53.30

2009 3:51.92

2010 3:52.03

2011 3:51.19

2012 3:51.71

5000m

2001 14:55.36

2002 14:42.20

2003 14:35.37

2004 14:39.72

2005 14:40.42

2006 14:43.84

2007 14:35.90

2008 14:40.28

2009 14:40.89

2010 14:38.96

2011 14:36.35

2012 14:30.97

10,000m

2001 31:23.35

2002 30:56.99

2003 30:50.85

2004 30:42.50

2005 30:23.40

2006 31:02.37

2007 30:43.01

2008 30:39.59

2009 30:43.33

2010 30:52.42

2011 30:41.65

2012 30:22.82

SC

2001 9:20.46

2002 9:14.81

2003 9:13.84

2004 9:18.15

2005 9:15.70

2006 9:19.36

2007 9:12.67

2008 9:18.45

2009 9:17.50

2010 9:12.22

2011 9:14.63

2012 9:07.20

The weather has been OK this year, but the improvements have been too significant and too linear over the past 7-10 years to explain it away with good conditions.

The reality is that American distance running at every level is getting significantly faster, and D3 is part and parcel of that trend.

runn wrote:

I know there is absolutely no love on these boards for d3 distance running ...

There's love for D3 among the real distance runners. Don't let the opinions of a few losers posting under many different names sway you.

Let's just get it out of the way and move on.

"blah blah blah Baby Nationals blah blah nobody cares about DIII."

There. Carry on.

I'm not sure that I agree that 9:40 guys are developing into 14:20 guys. There's some out there, sure, but a lot of the top schools are now getting good numbers of 9:20-9:30 guys. The change is coming at the high school level, where depth of times is way better than it used to be. There's no more money or roster spots in D1 than there used to be, though. So there's a bunch more 9:20s guys in the D3 talent pool than there used to be, and they're more likely to develop into 14:20 guys.

Azaleas wrote:

I'm not sure that I agree that 9:40 guys are developing into 14:20 guys. There's some out there, sure, but a lot of the top schools are now getting good numbers of 9:20-9:30 guys. The change is coming at the high school level, where depth of times is way better than it used to be. There's no more money or roster spots in D1 than there used to be, though. So there's a bunch more 9:20s guys in the D3 talent pool than there used to be, and they're more likely to develop into 14:20 guys.

Correct.

I graduated from a D3 school 2 years ago (HS mile PR was 4:40, graduated college with a 4:07 mile PR). Plenty of my friends/competitors went to middle of the road d1 programs and most of them are eating my dust now because they're either hurt from overtraining or are just hate the sport altogether. They frequently talk about how their coach doesn't care about lower level guys on the team. I'd rather be improving every year, ENJOYING RUNNING, and getting to compete at d3 nationals against some great athletes instead of ending my season at a conference meet.

Ditto the comment above. DIII is far greater than lower tier DI programs. Churns out much healthier, happier athletes in the long run. Kudos to DIII for keeping it real, keeping smiles on the faces of student-athletes, all while producing some solid and consistently improved talent. Symmonds, Morgan & Johnson-White from Hansons, and Rizzo, just to name a few of the studs who continue to produce at a professional level from a DIII background. Plenty more to add to this list, too, feel free to share. DIII continues to impress.

Tim Whatley wrote:

the milder weather this year probably has something to do with this since D III doesn't generally chase times by sending kids to meets in california (though it is strange that nationals is there this year).

Yeah I mean like other people said, it obviously doesn't explain it all but I think it had a significant impact. Places on the east coast/mid atlantic had almost no snow this winter, compared to 2010 when the mid-atlantic was hit with 2-3 feet that made it impossible to train outside for a couple weeks. Definitely a factor. Working out in 50 degree weather is much better than working out in 25 degree weather.

Azaleas wrote:

I'm not sure that I agree that 9:40 guys are developing into 14:20 guys. There's some out there, sure, but a lot of the top schools are now getting good numbers of 9:20-9:30 guys. The change is coming at the high school level, where depth of times is way better than it used to be. There's no more money or roster spots in D1 than there used to be, though. So there's a bunch more 9:20s guys in the D3 talent pool than there used to be, and they're more likely to develop into 14:20 guys.

A lot of kids have a HS coach who has no clue. One nearby school to mine can't get anyone to break 5 in the 1600, yet he coaches a large school (twice as large as mine). I routinely get many guys under 5 and even under 4:40.

Every once in a while one of his runners will go D3 and blossom with a real coach.

One girl commented on it- how she realized when she got to college how her HS coach knew nothing at all about distance running.

You can find good stat info here:

http://www.cmsathletics.org/ncaa/track/index

The two links at the top of the page go to lists that show in bold all the new top-10 marks for this year, and there are a lot of them in a variety of events. Some years there have been only a small handful of changes.

At the bottom of the page there are links to "Outdoor Marks Analysis" that shows the trend of Div III marks by event for winners, All Americans, last qualifier, etc., since 2001.

With the new qualification procedure this year of using the top 20 or 22 marks on the TFRRS list instead of an automatic/provision standard, it will be interesting to see if these numbers change.

Its because there are no autos or Provos this year. Run to help the NCAA figure them out for the future

Entries have been posted:

http://www.deltatiming.com/events/2012/2012-ncaa-division-3-outdoor-championships/men-accepted-qualifiers-pending-medical.htm

Quite a few dropped the 10K, so not as many doublers probably because of the strong fields.