What college has the most 3:40-3:45 1500 runners?

Man! wrote:
I would think that the Oregon post above would have ended the discussion.
That is the sickest depth for mile on one roster I've ever seen....
Anyone ever seen better depth than that?
In history?!?

You should have seen the Oregon roster it back in Salazar's day.

This topic brings up a huge topic: How do you deal with a large collection of talent?

At Oregon, just after Pre's death, there was so much talent; tons of 4:03-4 type guys, didn't get to race. If Bowerman had coached them, there could have been 20 sub 4 minute milers on the Oregon team at one time. No kidding. (Of course this would have meant having every one from 800m guys to 5,000m guys focus on the mile, but you get the point about how much talent was there.)

There were numerous, probably 12 sub 4:05 guys that couldn't make the team, never or rarely got to race. Guys that would have been in the first 3 at so many other school's, guys that got meat-groundnded into oblivion...because Bowerman was no longer around to stop the over training.

There was so-o much talent. Unfortunately Dellinger didn't have the time or inclination to fully use Bowerman's approach.

And so the meat grinding continued...the apex of which was both the success of Salazar (he nor Dellinger would or could reign him in)...and the extinction of Salazars career. And the early exit from the sport of so many of his contemporaries (Chapa etc.).

The small few that could handle the workload had some success...but it was short lived.

This is why you don't hear more raving about Dellinger; but still hear plenty of kudo's for Bowerman's achievements.

Dellinger eventually admitted he was "no Bowerman" that Bowerman was a "genius," and that Dellinger didn't have his capabilities. No kidding.

Others said that Dellinger coached and lived like he was on "permanent scholarship." Riding his reputation as a Olympian and on to the University gravy train. -Bowerman, being such a character...pissed off the University enough...even while donating to it...and Dellinger was an easy personality for the AD and Uni Prez to handle. That Bronze medal and his easy going ways allowed him to not be fired for nearly 20 years of mediocrity post J. Cruz.

Still, there was a stable of talent in the first few years after Pre died...attracted to the school because of Pre's fame...you can imagine...that was a stunning collection of talent. The program really needed 5 Bowermans for the hoard of talent that was there...which of course was impossible. And so a bunch...the majority of talent was mis-coached, mis-trained, screwed up, and screwed over.

You could say it was the real life cost of the behind the scenes soap opera that Eugene, Oregon, Bowerman/Dellinger, alumni and Nike became.

Big pieces of this are shared in Kenny Moore's book on Bowerman... But the full real life cost, the toll on so many athletes ruined by Dellinger...isn't really expressed in the book. You have to extrapolate it through the hints in Moore's book about the rift between Dellinger and Bowerman... How Dellinger was not Bowerman's first choice to succeed him. Or, you have to have been around the scene at the time and heard all the stories. On a team of 25 distance runners... 2 guys satisfied with Dellinger's approach...2 guys kinda satisfied...and the rest stymied or frustrated.

Every year guys who, if they had been coached well individually could have done something...dropped out and left Oregon. (Britz, Bayless, et. al.) Others stuck it out, constantly injured from the over training, or totally lost in the mix...survived the training...but constantly under performed due to being over trained.

Today, you look at some elite programs where there is one coach for 3-4 guys/gals. That is more sane.

The reports to Bowerman, about how Dellinger had abandon his "being under trained is better than being over trained" philosophy, was part of what made Bowerman vehemently regret recommending Dellinger (who was Bowerman's second choice.) And the fact that Bowerman could hold a strong opinion...and believed he was right...when he believed he was right...he believed it without reservation and hell fire or abandonment to anyone who disagreed with him.

So you had a small elite handful of guys who could survive and run well under all the over training (Centrowitz Sr., Salazar and a few others) and a second group that ran pretty well but was never happy with the over training and crappy coaching (Chapa, McChesney et.al.) and a hoard of talent that Bowerman could have turned into point scorers at NCAA's where a few might pop out and become champions if trained attentively (Moore types). Guys that ran in the transition between Bowerman and Dellinger (Tyson/Centrowitz Sr., Daggatt etc.) seemed loyal to both, but had short careers after Dellinger took over. And with the running boom hitting...over training seemed to be everywhere. It wasn't until knowledge of Coe's workload got out that "less could be more" started to be considered. Bowerman was already clued in...from decades of experience and paying attention.

Ironically...if you read the recent articles on programs in Kenya... There is a similar approach to Dellinger, a bunch of talent thrown at the wall with the same work load and the talent that can surviving seemingly anything...rises to the top. However it is only the talent that can succeed with such a workload...or could succeed under seemingly ANY workload. The others get ground up and spit out. But, look what Kenya produces? 2000 athletes in...5 great ones out. It's kind of insane.

Modern knowledge and a sane approach is the full circle of "back to Bowerman sanity" that Lananna and co. have brought back to vogue in resurrecting the Duck program. At least let's hope attention to not over training athletes i.e. using a more individualized and sane Bowerman approach is being used and not a one size fits all Dellinger approach. (The biggest sin in the Dellinger approach at that time was that almost zero attention was paid to helping the incoming freshmen runners adapt to the college workload. Bowerman would have told the youngsters to back off or sit out the last few sets... Dellinger just let the freshman work themselves to meat-ground status. So many guys got shredded, burned out. Guys like Salazar that came in already having done an insane workload, survived and did well. 20 other guys who could have scored in Pac Ten's, if not nationals...got ground. (This is what happens when you train everyone like a 5,000m runner!)

There is as much a hoard of talent at Oregon today, as there was post-Pre. Only today (hopefully, Lananna's program pays more attention to each athlete, individualized work loads etc....than in the post-Pre era. I am sure some guys/gals feel under the radar...because of the numbers in the program...but the resources are a lot more than back in the day.

Interestingly enough, you can look at what Lananna is doing and see his current teams as only the beginning.

It takes some time to rebuild a program. Lananna got a jump start with Rupp, and the surprise that was Wheating... So the program got a high profile again...real success of the program will be assessed over what the team can do over the next 8 years.

And how the classic challenge of how to handle a hoard of talent best.

It will be very interesting to see how Oregon's current collection of talent evolves over time.

Oregon has kind of come full circle to that classic challenge of dilemma of old... How do you coach such a large collection of diverse athletes?

Of course the answer is it takes intelligence and an individually attentive approach. And do you have a systematic approach and the resources to do that?

Bowerman was pre-med, he thought somewhat like a Doctor, seeing each athlete as an individual, to be "diagnosed" and "prescribed" their training individually.

Possibly the worst thing that ever happened to Oregon was that Pre arrived when he did... Pre...an athlete that could handle an insane workload (for most) coached by another runner who could handle an insane workload (Dellinger)...and in the process and the glitter of Pre's success...a key Bowerman precept was lost "better under trained than over trained."

I think Bowerman used to put it as "it is easier to recover from under training than it is from over training." I.e., you could get in better shape in shorter order than you could recover from the costs of over training (injury and illness).

The ultimate proof is in the record of athletes that Bowerman took from almost nothing...to scoring at NCAA's or better (lots) and how many Dellinger took from almost nothing to something (few).

Reading through Moore's book on Bowerman one of the most exciting things is how Bowerman shepherded some everyday guys to into championship status. And the fact that he did it repeatedly, over decades, points how what a smart coach he was. You don't see the same pattern in Dellinger's record.

Will you see it in Lananna's?

--I know some have pointed out that what Lananna's career still lacks is an athlete that has a substantial post college career or an Olympic medal etc., --Centro answered part of that last year. It will be interesting to see if Wheating, and AJ, and other Lananna coached former Ducks can give him a legacy beyond the NCAA...

It sure seems like everyone is running near or under 4:00 (mile) these days. I wish it had been that way 20 years ago. I lived through the "meat grinder" era, and I think that "A Duck" hit the nail on the head.

I believe over the next decade or so the USA will become increasingly competitive internationally. We are starting to have the necessary ingredients...lots of folks at high levels early, enough so that when the inevitable few are injured, it barely impacts the outlook at the trials. Imagine Kennedy being injured and missing the Olympics back in his time...our 5k team would have been drastically less competitive. Contrast that with Solinsky missing the 5k team...with the way Lomong is running, I'm not 100% sure Solinsky would have made the 5k team, even if healthy (and he is the 2nd fastest USA 5k of all time).

I think we'll see many more people hitting the top levels of the sport (e.g sub 13:00) and they will begin disappearing faster (injury, burnout, lack of sponsors, etc). The competitive pressures will force some to "go big", resulting in sudden success then disappearance. The events will also fill out better (already beginning to trickle over to the steeple). The guys who have long careers (Rupp and Lagat types) will have to be at the top of their game to make teams, so no lame years where they are not at their very best and still making teams.

It is so different than 20 years ago. Back then it seemed that you just hoped one guy could do something inspiring so you could get pumped about your own running. Now it seems every time the top guys hit the track, they PR every time and amaze you. I love what is happening right now in American distance running...

What college has the most 3:40-3:45 1500 runners?

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