sub 3.45 1500m training advice

There have been several threads recently on sub 4 training, you should look at those.

Your speed is fine. It's pretty odd that you've only got a 15:00 5k in you with your 3:45 and 90 mpw though. Personally I'd recommend more focus on tempos - 5:30 pace should be a jog for you over 6 miles, not enough stimulus to really benefit.

If you're really struggling to go faster on tempo workouts try mixing them up. One week go 6mi at 5:30, next week try 3x2mi at 5:25 with 2:00 rest, next week try 6-8x1mi at 5:20 with 1:00 rest. Then go back to a 6-8mi tempo and hopefully you can manage more like 5:25. Rinse, repeat. This is a crude estimation, but the general idea is that you can use shorter intervals to feel easier at a faster pace, then when you go back to your 'standard' 6 miler the effort you used for 5:30s should be the same effort for a faster pace. Realistically, 5:00 pace should be the standard you shoot for on a tempo effort at your level.

At the same time you have to keep your speed. I like short reps with short rest like 20x200 with 200 jog in :50 - 1:00 trying to average mile pace or a bit faster (start at 31ish and work to 28ish, maybe let loose on the las 2 or 3 with some 26-27s. This is great for maintaining speed and building endurance at race-specific pace while teaching you to hold that pace when tired.

But the tempo stuff is key. You sound like you might be a good racer which is nice (your races should be better than your workouts obviously) but if you can focus on slowly dropping those workout times, the race times should follow if you're not over-extending yourself trying to hammer out faster paces in practice.

Stop jogging your daily runs. Pick up the pace.

Cheers, some good advice. i must have a look at those other sub 4 threads.

To be honest, I was being generous to myself saying that my tempos are at 5.30. They are often 5.35s. I know that is very slow but thats genuinely were I am at. My best in a 5 mile race is 24.55.

Obviously it is something to look at improving.

Your problem is clearly on your aerobic power. But to build a great aerobic power, you need to have the capacity. Sub-LT runs, about 40-60minutes each depending from your feeling and pace and the frequency of these runs, even 90minutes progression runs, these should feel like you´re floating. Can be included in the long run (if done) also. After a lift in your LT your aerobic power has also room to improve. This is the basis for the improvement.

Read the other threads, including "sub 1:50". It may have been the most comprehensive one of all.

I post on these questions regularly. I know there are lots of good guys like yourself that get caught in between coaches or graduated without a good group to run with, and can truly benefit from some outside advice.

My beliefs are very similar to the Canova principles that are set out many places herein and debated regularly.

Here's a brief summary of my views for you personally;

1) yes, you need to get a bit stronger, so increase tempo work. Aim at 8k in 26:30.

2) Short intervals are not enough. Run4x1000m@ @2:45-50 with 3-4 min rest.

3) For specific speed, do 3x800@2:02 aiming at reducing to 2:00.

4) I personally like 3-4 x600 @1:30 more than 8x400@60.

5) Time trial at 2k 2-3 weeks before your goal races.

Good luck

20 minute tempo run 5:10, 5:00, 4:50, 4:40 + stride

Granny Jizzer is this you ?

rexim wrote:

Cheers, some good advice. i must have a look at those other sub 4 threads.

To be honest, I was being generous to myself saying that my tempos are at 5.30. They are often 5.35s. I know that is very slow but thats genuinely were I am at. My best in a 5 mile race is 24.55.

Obviously it is something to look at improving.

I agree with others you need to get stronger. You are running more than enough miles (if anything cut your mileage for better quality workouts), and your speed is good, but for breaking 4 minutes you are on the slow end, so you will have to make up for it with strength. I think you need to get your 5K time down to around 14:20-14:30. So I agree with others you need better tempos and intermediate length intervals. Try something like 6-8 x 800m w/ 400jog @ 2:15, full recovery (maybe even a 4-5 mile run), + 5 x 300m w/ 1 min. rest @ 45 sec cutting down to 41 sec.

I've heard about this 10x400 w/ 1 min rest at mile pace as an indicator workout before and it has always bewildered me. Who the hell, besides some epo'd up guy like Rashid Ramzi, could do this workout?? I couldn't even come close. I don't think I could even come within 2 seconds per repeat. I would think that if you can do 10x400 in 60 w/ 1 min rest without killing yourself you could do 3:55 or faster

cmurph wrote:

I've heard about this 10x400 w/ 1 min rest at mile pace as an indicator workout before and it has always bewildered me. Who the hell, besides some epo'd up guy like Rashid Ramzi, could do this workout?? I couldn't even come close. I don't think I could even come within 2 seconds per repeat. I would think that if you can do 10x400 in 60 w/ 1 min rest without killing yourself you could do 3:55 or faster

I agree. I think that was a workout Jim Ryun used to do, except maybe he pulled off like 20. But he was 3:51.

The 400 workout is a repeat distance that has worked well for milers.

A sub 4 runner i would expect to run 10 X 400 1 min rest like this.

62,61,60,59,60,59,60,59,61,57

As a coach I would be looking at that last 400. Can the runner close when tired. they key is to get used to goal pace early in the season. 10X200 at 29 works

As a Masters runner in the 4:30 range I prefer to do 6 400s at 67 pace and work my way to 2X (5x400) with 5 min between sets.

A Talented high school runner will run the workout like this. Goal 4:20 mile

62,61,63,66,66,68,72 and done. They always start too fast

been around wrote:

A Talented high school runner will run the workout like this. Goal 4:20 mile

62,61,63,66,66,68,72 and done. They always start too fast

That might be a little exaggerated...

Should add to my previous post some traditional sub-VO2max basic workouts now before more challenging workouts. Something like progressive 8-10x1k @ ~10k--> close to 5k pace, for the last ones (depending your fitness) with active recovery 90secs with short LT runs (~10min) before and after the session. I offer nothing new and fancy, but maybe more high end aerobic base workouts. Your mileage is enough for sure. Do this and reap the benefits after some of more intense workouts/races at 3k-5k pace (to build the aerobic power) and the fast stuff like 400-600`s at 800m pace (like anaerobic power) or even some 400m races/workouts, don´t do too much of these. After these start racing the 1500.

Thanks for the input. All very interesting to read.

I would very much agree regarding the longer tempo stuff. This being an area that I must improve on. In the past I would have adopted the Daniels approach and just done 20-25 minute tempo at 5.35 which isn't long enough or fast enough.

Just a note on my past. I would always have tended top run my fastest race at the start of the season (after coming of the longer stuff (tempos, 5k pace sessions, etc.) I would then put all my focus on 1500m race pace sessions in training. And what always happened was that I'd gradually begin to get slower. I would blow up spectacularly in last 200m.

So, it would appear to be obvious that I need to keep in touch with what would be the traditional winter longer stuff.

Would you suggest continuing the tempo workouts into and throughout the track season?

Should 5k paced sessions by continued during the racing period?

Regarding some of the suggestions on workouts...

3x800m in 2.00/2.02. This is a session that I can manage and run some decent time.

But I would struggle in a session like 8 x 1k off 60/90 rec. I would struggle to average quicker than 3 minute k's

In a nutshell, I would appear that the longer tempo runs, workouts at 5k and 3k pace are what can bring on my aerobic system.

Notably, a couple of posters said that easy runs should be nice and comfortable on around 6minute mile pace. This would certainly not be the case for myself. In fact I would struggle to recover from workouts and tempo runs if I were to do so. I would tend to average between 6.30-7 mins.

The long run: 16-18 miles at 6.30 pace 12 miles at sub 6 pace?

I´ve had similar training effect from the race pace work, doing too much of it will only slow you down. Remember, in the season you´ll get the most race pace work by racing. And yes it´s really important to continue the base work throughout the season, EASY runs (I don´t agree either that these should be as fast as ~6minute miles, keep the heart rate around ~70% MHR or even slower), the sub-LT work also really important, and some of these tempos/the ~10k pace progressive intervals just as in the base phase (I would avoid now the HARD 3k-5k work between your races), but remember the goal is to maintain the fitness and recover fast, so avoid too long and stressful workouts. The long run you mentioned is a bit too stressful in the season in my opinion, so I would cut it shorter (especially the faster part of it). To maintain the anaerobic capacity, a handful of occasional relaxed fast 150´s with a long (3-5min) passive recovery. As long as you do some of these important things you´ll recover and be able to maintain the fitness without stretching it too much. If you have a tight racing schedule just make sure you keep the EASY morning runs going even in the race days if possible. But if you need a rest day, take it. Just maintain, recover, relax and do your hardest sessions by racing, you´ve already done the hard work!

The long run and the you mentioned is better in the base phase as you probably planned (I misunderstood that you talked about in season sessions on that part), but be still careful with it!

running 3:45 is like a walk in the park. i run 3:25 1500m splits on long runs

Screw 3:45