Survey: How many of you married men or women have/ had affairs?

Social Worker wrote:

You are all wrong, sex is actually a pretty big deal, no matter what you people want to believe. There are emotional and physical repercussions from the act...

makes me sick. You are probably clients of mine.

The emotional repercussions are largely cultural; we made those up by putting too much importance on sex, which all animals do with little emotional damage.

The physical repercussions are mild. Diseases are most often harmless and that same risk is found throughout our physical lives. Most diseases are acquired in other daily activities and can be just as serious. Almost totally preventable with sex too.

Having kids is a big deal but so is taking responsibility for others lives when we drive, own guns, sell cigarettes etc. And we can prevent that too. People have been reproducing for a long time.

You seem to really hate your clients, I see that LCSW of yours has given you the ability to be objective and non judgmental of your clients. Nice. And you should like our cultural view of sex, it keeps you working!

[quote]bigger picture wrote:

The emotional repercussions are largely cultural;

Hey "bigger picture" you really are an idiot if you think 'feelings' are cultural. The pain of being cheated on is visceral and cannot be taught or diminished by culture. Cheating may be more common than we all would like to admit but that doesn't make it more acceptable or less devastating when it happens to you.

We are between a 'moral' rock and a evolutionary hard place.

You're a moron wrote:

[quote]bigger picture wrote:

The emotional repercussions are largely cultural;

Hey "bigger picture" you really are an idiot if you think 'feelings' are cultural. The pain of being cheated on is visceral and cannot be taught or diminished by culture. Cheating may be more common than we all would like to admit but that doesn't make it more acceptable or less devastating when it happens to you.

I agree with you that the hurt that 'cheating' causes is real, but disagree that this is not as a result of how we have been socialized to view relationships. The hurt associated with 'cheating' truly lies in the feelings of deceit or loss of trust, not in the sex act itself. 'Cheating' is less about sex than it is about one person in a relationship not living up to the terms of the agreement that defines that relationship.

If people didn't consider sexual monogamy to be an important tenet of being in a relationship, then there would be no 'emotional repercussions'.

You're a moron wrote:

Hey "bigger picture" you really are an idiot if you think 'feelings' are cultural. The pain of being cheated on is visceral and cannot be taught or diminished by culture.

You should look at the cultures around the world where they have similar institutions to marriage and sex outside the marriage is totally acceptable and frequent (for both men and women). There is no emotional pain there. They don't care. This is cultural issue.

One example, of many:

Agreed.

I have always been pretty open when it comes to sex, my wife and i swing with other couples and single females/males. this is something we do as a hobby that we both really enjoy. our views on it are that it's something to do on vacations also you dont have to worry about cheating if you can bring the person you want to f#ck home.

I have in the time we been together had fun that she doesnt know about and I dont feel guilty, I have hooked up at a massage place and some other random stuff that was just completely emotionless sex. I also did not kiss these women but we do kiss other people when we are swinging. I think the kissing is the emotional part, if I am at a massage place and get a handjob there is nothing wrong with that but if I sit there cuddling with the woman kissing her on the lips and talking about our lives then that is too emotional.

The one thing my wife has learned over the years is that sex can be emotional(which we have together) and sex can be for pure pleasure which we have with other people. In the end its just sex and nothing else.

"Normal" societalconditioning expects us to be stoic, rational adults in the face of hardships of employment, public service, raising children and the like, but tolerates, even encourages petty, indulgent, self-righteous and jealous behavior when there is "infidelity". If someone boinks your wife (with her approval) on the side, it is tantamount to a personal attack on you (i.e. your ego)with a deadly weapon. This attitude is childish and stupid on many levels.

Use protection where appropriate and paternity test those babies, while having the self-confidence that if your partner leaves you, he/she can be replaced forthwith, and you will be light years ahead of the petty everday chump who reaches for a gun if he sees someone look at his wife sideways.

bigger picture wrote:

The emotional repercussions are largely cultural; we made those up by putting too much importance on sex, which all animals do with little emotional damage.

The physical repercussions are mild. Diseases are most often harmless and that same risk is found throughout our physical lives. Most diseases are acquired in other daily activities and can be just as serious. Almost totally preventable with sex too.

Having kids is a big deal but so is taking responsibility for others lives when we drive, own guns, sell cigarettes etc. And we can prevent that too. People have been reproducing for a long time.

You seem to really hate your clients, I see that LCSW of yours has given you the ability to be objective and non judgmental of your clients. Nice. And you should like our cultural view of sex, it keeps you working!

If you personally can have extramarital affairs and have no personal emotional repercussions, than that is great, more power to you. Saying things like "we made those up by putting too much importance on sex," however, makes it seem like your view is that we all got together one day to arbitrarily create this emotional baggage that we thought should go hand in hand with sex; if we would just recognize this, than such repercussions would diminish and they would not hold sway over us.

This is obviously not the case. The norms that exist surrounding marriage and adultery may indeed be cultural, as you suggest, but that does not make them any less real in their use within our ways of life. The emotional baggage exists as a result of the practices that we operate under within this context. That is why so many people have been disagreeing with the sentiments you espouse; because there norms surrounds the arena of marriage. Again, if you can be guilty free and cheat on your wife, than hey, go for it. But understand that you are in the minority.

bigger picture wrote:

The emotional repercussions are largely cultural; we made those up by putting too much importance on sex, which all animals do with little emotional damage.

The physical repercussions are mild. Diseases are most often harmless and that same risk is found throughout our physical lives. Most diseases are acquired in other daily activities and can be just as serious. Almost totally preventable with sex too.

Having kids is a big deal but so is taking responsibility for others lives when we drive, own guns, sell cigarettes etc. And we can prevent that too. People have been reproducing for a long time.

You seem to really hate your clients, I see that LCSW of yours has given you the ability to be objective and non judgmental of your clients. Nice. And you should like our cultural view of sex, it keeps you working!

This is the most chauvinistic thing I have EVER read on this message board.

Sure, men can go have sex with whomever with little regard to the LIFE that is created. Slavery is also abundant across cultures, and I suppose that you support that as well. Might as well keep the womenfolk busy with all the kids while the men are busy sexing up the one who aren't pregnant.

You are probably a bald loser who can't get a woman anyway. Have fun with your hookers, douchbag.

tripple wrote:

I've never cheated and don't ever intend to...that said I don't think "happily married" is that abnormal or morally corrupt. I find his attitude more acceptable than the self righteous religeous zealots posting on here.

In the same boat with you.

Nice reasoned reply. I would argue that we should try to change the norm here as it is destructive and unnecessary but I agree most would not side with me. However, we have seen big moral changes in the past that were once a minority view such as with women's rights and segregation, etc.

Cannot Believe It wrote:

This is the most chauvinistic thing I have EVER read on this message board.

Sure, men can go have sex with whomever with little regard to the LIFE that is created. Slavery is also abundant across cultures, and I suppose that you support that as well. Might as well keep the womenfolk busy with all the kids while the men are busy sexing up the one who aren't pregnant.

You are probably a bald loser who can't get a woman anyway. Have fun with your hookers, douchbag.

I'm very confused how you got chauvinism from this. I never suggested no one should care about life. I said freedom to have multiple sexual partners causes neither a physical or emotional problem. If you have a child, man or woman, you have a responsibility.(Note my reference to it being a big deal earlier.) But it's easy to prevent the life and enjoy sexual freedom and satisfaction. I never suggested anywhere that men should impregnate women and leave them. You created that.

No. I don't support slavery. I do however view exclusivity in marriage as a form of slavery that is destructive.

And the ad hominem attack at the tail end only makes you look petty. A strong reasoned argument is always superior.

bigger picture wrote:

[quote]The Judge wrote:

Come back soon my small brained friend.

Congrats. You have mastered the add hominem attack. Shows integrity.

The Judge wrote:"So we can assume you totally honest about everything you do and think with your spouse?"

Ummm. Yes.[quote]The Judge wrote:

You lost all credibility here.

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OK, so let's review:

First you post:

(1) The crux of this whole matter is that (2) we put too much value on sex. We see sex what a whole relationship is about. Because I guarantee you that everyone of you here who criticizing this guy has lied to you significant pother and have secrets you would never them. Maybe you look at porn, maybe you hate people of certain ethnicity, maybe you steal things, maybe yo have read their diary, whatever. All are bad but somehow we all justify bad treatment of others or decide our secrets are best kept hidden.

(3) The reality is that most people cheat on their spouse at one time or another and (4) we are stuck with a silly Puritanical morality that says that one silly act of sex is justification is enough to ruin a relation ship that is otherwise great.

(5)Maybe we all should grow up and realize that sex is small peanuts and that if (6) one orgasm is enough to ruin your relationship of 20 years, you're a f***ing immature baby that has weak sense of commitment.

Please allow me to point out that in this one post you have:

1) Completely missed on what is really the crux of the matter (as I pointed out in my reply).

(2) Made completely unfounded assumptions about the behavior of "everyone" else.

(3) Made a claim that does not seem to be backed up by the statistics

(4) Again made an unfounded assumption about others, in this case that they "are stuck with a silly Puritanical morality..."

(5) Made an general claim about apparently everyone else's lack of maturity and I suppose by inference your own superiority (rather amusing when juxtaposed with your subsequent "high horse" comment, don't you think)

(6) Completely missed the point and as a double play managed to throw in a gratuitous ad hominem attack complete with the foulest of language.

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My response, and my point. Which I must say remains THE point:

Nope, that is definitely NOT the crux of the matter.

The crux of the matter is honesty and integrity. Every person deserves to know the truth about things that they consider important. In particular they especially deserve to know the truth from their most trusted partner (aka spouse). It is only with this that they may make their own decisions based on the most accurate picture of their universe possible.

1) It is NOT up to you to determine what is or is not considered important to your spouse.

2) It is not acceptable to effectively lie (by omission) to your spouse about something that they consider important.

This is the crux of the matter.

And the reality is that you don't have the balls to face your wife after telling her the truth. Everything else is just the rationalization of a coward.

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Which your reply addressed nothing of the issue involved:

(1) So we can assume you totally honest about everything you do and think with your spouse?

Or is sex the only thing you need to be honest about? (2) You again fall victim to attributing a ridiculous importance on sex and pretend the areas you choose to lie about (by omission perhaps) are not as important. (3) You're a victim of a culture that id fixated by sex.

(4) Relationships require dishonesty and you can easily forget about your dishonesty because you feel "it is different." (5) Get off your high horse.

Herein you have:

(1) Asked a silly rhetorical question to which you assumed you knew the answer. Unfortunately for your credibility you do not know me (or anyone else on these boards) better than I/they know myself/themselves.

(2) Made an absurd assumption about what level of importance I place on sex. Once again you take the rather startling jump of seemingly knowing me and my assumptions better than I do. Especially as I said nothing that could possibly back up your claim for me.

(3) Claimed victimhood for me. Thank you oh all knowing Big Picture kind of guy. How I love the notion of playing the victim (well, not really). But it truly is kind of you to supply me with a ready made excuse for my own stupidity. How can I ever repay you?

(4) Made a general claim about relationships that is certainly not justified. Perhaps you have made the intellectual mistake of assuming that whatever applies to you and your relationship applies to all. Just a thought.

(5) Made a rather amusing comment about "high horses". I think that it is fair to point out that most of what you have written has nothing at all to do with what I wrote and certainly nothing whatsoever that you have written has reasonably addressed my points. My points were A) It is NOT up to you to determine what is or is not considered important to your spouse and B) It is not acceptable to effectively lie (by omission) to your spouse about something that they consider important. Ah yes, quite the high horse.

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To which I replied:

Hey, good to hear from someone with very little brain. One of my favorite attributes in an LRC poster. Makes for good laughs.

So, where to begin:

"So we can assume you totally honest about everything you do and think with your spouse?"

Ummm. Yes.

I have to admit that the fact that you appear to find that hard to believe is quite amazing to me. Being honest in general comes more naturally to me than being dishonest. Not that I have never been dishonest with anyone about anything - but those instances are pretty few and far between.

Then, when I factor in that my wife is my best friend, my confidant, the love of my life, and (truth in advertising here) the most beautiful woman that I have ever laid eyes on, the notion of being dishonest to her seems preposterous. I would betray my best friend's trust in order to get laid? Weird.

Now for:

"Or is sex the only thing you need to be honest about? You again fall victim to attributing a ridiculous importance on sex and pretend the areas you choose to lie about (by omission perhaps) are not as important. You're a victim of a culture that id fixated by sex."

As for sex being the only thing that I am honest about? No, I am honest about everything with my wife. It really isn't that difficult.

As for "You again fall victim to attributing a ridiculous importance on sex..."

Nope. Try reading my first post. Hint: It is the one you responded to.

I think that I stated fairly clearly that sex (and puritanical or other attitudes toward sex) were NOT the crux of the matter. Do you need to have that spelled out for you? Oh wait, I forgot, this is a message board so all of this is spelled out. I'm not sure how to make it any clearer. Again, go read my earlier post again. It is all about honesty and integrity.

Now perhaps instead of posting meaningless drivel with unfounded assumptions about the person you are addressing you might want to actually try to refute the very simple ideas that I posted.

Come back soon my small brained friend.

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Which you so convincingly objected to with:

Congrats. You have mastered the add hominem attack. Shows integrity.

[quote]The Judge wrote:"So we can assume you totally honest about everything you do and think with your spouse?"

Ummm. Yes.[quote]The Judge wrote:

You lost all credibility here.

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Let's see, you apparently lack the capacity to understand that not everyone is dishonest with their spouse. It is a shame that your intellectual capacity is so limited. Or perhaps I should assume that indeed it is so superior that somehow you are able to deduce the state of everyone else's relationship from that of yours (see any irony there, Big Fella?).

Oh, yes, you did complain about an add (sic) hominem attack. This from the individual who posted about others whose perspective is different from his that they are apparently "f***ing immature babies". Yes, yes you certainly have me convinced. I tell you, you just can't make this stuff up. It really happens, right here on LRC.

But, being that I am a nice guy I will help you out here by pointing out that ad hominem attacks have nothing whatsoever to do with integrity, neither positively nor negatively. These are quite unrelated concepts. So, I will not impugn your integrity because of your ad hominem attack. I will simply point out that you have:

1) Made many, many wild, global assumptions about me and others

2) Not addressed what I correctly pointed out was the crux of the matter

and (3) Hid behind the "I'm not going to play anymore because of an ad hominem attack" wall.

Very impressive.

Meanwhile I have:

1) Not made all these global assumptions

2) Directly addressed the crux of the matter

and 3) Got a good chuckle out of your add hominem defense

Nonetheless I will give you another chance. Be ready.

So, here we go:

1) Yes or No: It is up to you to determine what is or is not considered important to your spouse.

2) It is/is not acceptable to effectively lie (by omission or commission) to your spouse about something that they consider important.

Here's your chance Big Fella. Redeem yourself with one of those "strongly reasoned arguments" that you are so famous for.

I've been married ten years and been in an affair with another married woman for half of that. We are both runners and both have kids.

There isn't a day that goes by that I don't regret what I am doing. I am unhappy in my marriage. Before the affair I tried to make things better. I really tried. We drifted further apart. She's emotionally distant and unsupportive of my running. She wasn't there for me for a number of hard years in my life when I needed her most. She's not a b*tch, just not a deep person. We have very different lifestyles (not the least of which is my running.) Why not get a divorce? Because they are complicated. She is a stay at home mom. I can't trust her to hold a full time job or to manage the money she'd get in allimony. I don't want my kids raised by a single mom on child support. I don't want to be away from my kids. And I don't want someone else raising my kids. I'm a lousy husband, but a great father.

Coming clean would only serve to clear my conscience. Nothing more. It would ruin my my family and crush my wife. Is she unhappy in our marriage? Probably. Not nearly as much as I am. If she knows she's chosen not to say anything, but I don't think she knows. She's an avoider and never deals with problems.

Yes, there are days I can't look myself in the mirror. Do I like the fact that I'm doing this? No. Why do I keep doing it? Because it takes my mind off how unhappy I am in my marriage. It's better than being pissed off all the time. It's better than being emotionally empty and not feeling anything for anyone. My kids see me happier. I'm more pleasant to be around.

The "other" woman and I truly are more compatable. We have fun together, have similar interests, challenge each other. We don't see each other often (or often enough.) Sometimes going for weeks w/o contact. I'll take that because the times we are together are wonderful.

I didn't run out to find "someone else." Just that the "other" woman and I took comfort in each other. She was in much the same boat and understood. And it was very helpful to know someone had that same understanding. Then we became too close and took it too far. Years later we are still seeing each other.

I've never told this to anyone. I realize how wrong all of this is. I married the wrong woman. I realized this too late. And I regret it and what I am doing every day.

You continue to miss MY crux. (Is it up to you to determine another person's crux?) The crux is that we ruin relationships by making sex too important. A good relationship destroyed because of infidelity is a waste. Think of all the other reasons we look past and tell people to "work it out" but sex is the deal breaker. Too mush emphasis on sex.

I have said that we should avoid lying. It's not optimal. But everyone is dishonest with others in one way or another. And sometime lying is actually good.

I am still astounded that you continue to hold you have never been dishonest with your spouse. Do your really think anyone takes that seriously? Never, really?

You are trying to steer the argument to your point but it has never been the crux that I have discussed.I have argued about the need to allow people the freedom to have more than one partner, ideally through mutual agreement.

I am not saying you should promise not to cheat and break that promise. But to say that all instances of cheating are pure evil fails to address the complexity of relationships.

And btw, I am not a Big Fella; this is Letsrun after all.

I think everyrose here gives a really good demonstration of the difficulty of these kinds of decisions. He's obviously a good person, in a failed commitment, that has no easy out for anyone involved. Should he 'fess up and make a mess of his, his wife's and his children's future, or should he keep quiet and do something he feels is wrong but is better than the alternative? Or should he have avoided the affair and live in misery? The hard and fast "cheating is always bad", "he is evil" and "be a man and admit it" rules don't always work.

everyrose wrote:

I'm a lousy husband, but a great father.

This sentence doesn't exist. A great father shows his children that he loves and respects his wife.

... you are going to ruin your kid's lives when this comes out, at least more than you have already.