Marathon Training Thread - Week Ending 1/24

Average_Joe wrote:

Sat: PM: 8.2 easy Thought I had a track race today and showed up to the meet only to find out I was a day early. Stupid mistake. After last week (in which I missed I race because they changed the schedule on me) I decided to bail on the meet and the indoor track season altogether. I need to get started with actual marathon training

Average Joe! Can't believe you did that, man. I don't feel like as much of a bum now though, not finding you at Harvard.

Marmite:

In answer to a couple of your questions, first about the cruise intervals - I guess they were about 1/2 mar effort, sure. Basically what I consider my LT/Tempo pace, although sometimes it's quicker on cruise intervals than on a solid tempo run.

Regarding the marathon progression, Boston will be #4 for me, my progression has gone 2:37, 2:32.50 (Boston), 2:33.10 (Boston), 2:27.50, roughly 2 marathons/year.

My 1/2 marathons have almost all sucked, I think it's because I always run them a month out from my marathon when I'm pretty hosed. Even if I back off for a few days before I still stink it up.

My 10k is low 31s.

AKM

Another question or two for the thread:

- how many marathons have you done and how much improvement have you seen in your times?

- what sort of conversion do you get from your 10k/half to marathon time?

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I've done 5. The first 3 were in 13 months about 8 yr's ago. 2:59:5x, 2:56:4x, 2:58:5x.

The next two were the past two Nov's. NY in 2:57:4x and Philly 2:52:4x. These were the first two where I attempted to follow any kind of organized training, and Philly was the first where I felt I really ran a good race.

My best ever 1/2 (between marathons 1&2) indicates I ought to be able to run around 2:45 for a full. During training for Philly my tuneup 10k and 15k said I ougt to be around the 2:54-56 range. I never really thought of myself as a "marathoner", but Now I'm kind of hooked on getting closer to that 2:45 "potential".

I guess that's why I'm hooked on this thread. It's a great source of information and motivation. Thanks all!

marmite wrote:

- how many marathons have you done and how much improvement have you seen in your times?

1 prior marathon. Chicago 2009 - 2:34:51

marmite wrote:

- what sort of conversion do you get from your 10k/half to marathon time?

10k PR - 31:46 (collegiate track), never run a 10k on the road. And only ran one other half marathon in 2003 (high school) in 1:19:44.

pablo wrote:

niarun - Welcome back!! Has this "lack of mileage" been going on for a while? An illness/virus can certainly put you down and out for a while. But it sounds like you just need to push through this rough patch to get back to your desired fitness...in other words, you're just out of shape.

Ha, I think you are right. Had another good run tonight. It was a weird sequence for getting out of shape, though. month of jogging after marathon (this understandably resulted in out of shapeness). Then back in the saddle 45 60 60 40 2 weeks mostly off and driving around on my but, then back in action and felt terrible. Now, after two weeks of bad running, its like it was all a bad dream. Maybe it was the month off catch up with me. Maybe I'll pretend it didn't happen and not think of it again. Thanks for the encouragement marmite.

For the water/gel debate. I'm all for gels, but they start to get costly. I can feel a difference on a hard 12-14 miler (not really on an ez one) but I usually only take them on longer runs or marathon pace runs late in the training. Amazon has them pretty cheap in 24 packs with the supersaver whatever, so its a better deal than I can get elsewhere. If you like vanilla pudding. I carry water in a belt if I can't figure out how to stash it (drive a car out and leave some along the route). Hate it though.

I used Another's eat everything in sight plan, and now am trying to get rid of it. 3 down, a lot to go.

My conversion from half to full depends on the magnitude of my blow up and whether it happens at 19 or 23 miles in. (4 marathons completed, one DNF).

wb wrote:

BostonBound, thank you for your comments and questions. I've been starting to incorporate longer tempos into my training because in my last marathon I felt that I was lacking endurance... in the buildup my shorter interval workouts went well, as did my long slower runs. Come race day I felt like I would have benefited from a little more specificity. So long as I don't overtrain, I think it will help.

I just wanted to second this. I think the longer tempos are good to get into the mix, with the overtraining caveat. They teach you your MP rhythm and by race day I want my legs to feel like MP metronomes. And MP really doesn't seem to beat up the legs. The easier my tempos feel the more confidence I have about raceday.

Don't normally bring gels or stop for water but it's generally too cold for me to need water on the run. Will bring gels for longer/faster runs more to get used to digesting them.

As far as my marathon past: 3:02 BQ in 11/08 and 2:43 Boston 4/09. Took a few years off from running prior to '08.

AKMarmoset wrote:

Average Joe! Can't believe you did that, man. I don't feel like as much of a bum now though, not finding you at Harvard.

Oh crap I forgot you were going to be there and might have said Hi. Sorry about that. I suppose I could have showed up and at least said hello

marmite wrote:

BB, A_J

Cracking set of 1600s. Is that around 10k pace/effort? Some great runs in that week.

Those are lactate threshold pace -- Cruise Intervals. Well technically, the first 3 were LT pace, the next two were a few seconds too fast and the last one was much too fast.

But since the biggest problem we have at our workouts is people running them all too fast, the general message is that if people stick to the actual pace for most of them they are free to go crazy on the last one if they want.

Race: Eugene May 2nd

Goal: Sub 2:40

Mon: off

Tues: 10, 7:10 av

Wed: 9 on the deathmill. 7:10 av

Thurs: 10, 6:55 av

Fri: off. Traveling.

Sat: 13, 7:40 av. Ran in lunarglides. Killed my right arch

Sun: 10, 7:00 av. Back in my Spans. Felt great.

Summary: 52 miles, 2 days off. Felt good overall. Saturday was going to be 16 until shoes killed me. Shooting for 70 this week with two good workouts.

Amazing training guys! Sure motivates me to get my miles up and see what I can really do!

Average_Joe wrote:

[quote]marmite wrote:

BB, A_J

Cracking set of 1600s. Is that around 10k pace/effort? Some great runs in that week.

quote]

Since I am more of a track and short distance runner I tend to do these things a little faster than I'm supposed to. The further I run, the slower I get(relatively speaking; 4:15mile - 2:41marathon). That was probably somewhere between 10K and LT pace, closer to 10K.

As for marathon history it's all over the place and probably doesn't help much:

Fall 2006: 2:41 (50mpw XC training)

Fall 2008: 2:53 (sporatic running, just to qualify for Boston)

Boston 2009: 2:48 (injuried knee in Oct 08, started running again mid January with no base. Ran 3 days a week. Interval workout Tues, Tempo run Thursday, Long run Sunday ~40mpw)

10K XC 33:30ish

1/2 Marathon: 1:18ish (seriously hungover)

I haven't been healthly enought to train consistently since I moved up in distance. 2005 back surgery and 2007 almost no running at all. Pretty sad looking back at it. Hopefully averaging 80-90mpw will get me under 2:40 at Boston, but I understand that the miles now might not pay off right away. We'll see.

Goal Race: Boston

Goal Time: sub 3:00?

Had a pretty easy week after Houston. Legs were still a bit sore on Thursday/Friday. I've been catching up on beer and burgers.

M: off

T: off

W: off

Th: 4 easy

F: off

Sa: 5.7 easy

Su: off

Yes...that's a whopping 9.7 miles for the week. I'll probably do 25-30 next week and slowly work back to 75-85 before tapering again.

I'm not real sure what time to shoot for in Boston. The downhills have me a bit worried.

My history:

NY 06: 3:06:1x, then I proceeded to get really sick for three months from 1/07-4/07 with no running at all (I even got shingles). So basically starting over from scratch. That was my first marathoning career... My first run back was 3 miles @ 12 min/mile...

Then, BOS 08: 3:20:2x, CHI 08: 3:14:5x, HOU 09: 3:01:4x, BOS 09: 2:58:4x, CHI 09: 2:55:5x. So basically from April 08 to October 09 (18 months), I dropped about 25 minutes. I'm hoping to continue the PR streak in Boston in April. Maintaining the streak in NY in November might be tough. I believe NY is way harder than Boston.

All of my other PRs aren't that good, HM: 1:26:40, 10k: 38:17 (Cow Harbor), 5k: 18:47. I didn't break 20 minutes in the 5k until November 2008. Its crazy to think I'm trying to run 8x5k @ 20 minutes in three months....

Let's see... running history. I'll give more then asked for!

HS- 20mpw, never injured, lots of intervals. 50.9, 1:58, 4:28, decent cross runner.

College- Started as an 800 guy. Was a complete headcase, always running too hard trying to make the travel squad. Graduated with 1:56, 4:19, 8:40, 15:12 PRs. Averaged probably 50 mpw? A couple injuries (stress fracture fall of my junior year and no track senior year). Horrible cross runner (26:58 was best at VCP).

Post college: 19 months completely off, ran for 7 months (roughly 40mpw) then another 19 months completely off.

Serious comeback 1: Avg 50mpw Jan 2004 until Aug 2006. Ran 1 10k (the only 10k of my life). Ran 34:30 as a tempo.

Aug 2006-Nov 2008: Basically no running because of this still stubborn piriformis issue.

Serious comeback 2: Started Jan 2009. Ran 23:30 for 4 miles in late Mar (all out, puked) 1:20:20 for a half in late May (all out, was basically walking at the end), 1:18:02 for a half in August (all out), 16:26 for 5k in Sep, 2:45:23 for the marathon in Nov (all out). Averaged 42 mpw for the 1st 20 weeks of the year and 66 mpw for the 20 weeks prior to NY.

Since NY (excluding weeks off) have averaged 68mpw and am planning on averaging 96 mpw until taper time. Though that seems like a big jump, the last 11 weeks before NY I averaged 75mpw.

Never been a high mileage guy, but I like it. Hoping it pays off not only in the marathon, but when I drop down and do some shorter stuff next year.

So long winded answer to the question:

1:18:02 and 34:30.

I ran in a half marathon this weekend, I am running Boston.

My goal there is just to break 3:30. (8:00 pace)

In the HM I started out at 8:45 just to warm up, and hit miles 2-4 in 8:00 to 8:10. At 5 miles I began to wind it down- 7:50 etc.. and by the 7th mile I was running 7:30s. The last 3 miles were right at 7:10 pace, and I was right at the edge. I feel like if I had been more goal oriented towards this HM that I could have run 7:30 for all 13 miles- maybe even 7:20. As it was I was at the end of a 58 mile week, and had run for the 4 days previous- no taper for the HM. I wore a HRM and it never got over 150- stayed mainly in the 140's for the last half of the race. I've been doing a LOT of slow base building all winter, no speed or tempos- just miles. Some of those miles include hills but I just run them for strength right now- not really digging into them.

So the question is what do I introduce into the training mix now? Some tempos? Hills? Not sure. My heart rate feedback seems to indicate my legs need some speed- I had the aerobic capacity available during the HM but couldn't seem to use it. Also, I still consider this base building time for Boston.

2TM, we have similar histories and prs.

HS: big slacker 1:59, 4:24 prs

College('98-'02): lots of injuries 3:57 1500, 2:29 1K, 1:56 800. Horrible XC runner too. 26.xx PR (don't remember exactly, don't care to)

2003: Temporary Retirement until I realized that I wasn't going to get fat even if I tried so I might as well have an answer when people asked why I was so skinny.

2004: Ran a few fast track races before herniated disc

2005: Back surgery

2006: Set PRs in track 3K(8:51) and 5K(15:26) and Marathon (2:41) (~50mpw)

2007: No running, injuries

2008-Present: See above marathon history.

What motivated you to move up from the short stuff? First my back couldn't handle the pounding of 200 and 400 workouts. Then it became easier to find people to train with for distance. My mid-distance training group from 2004 dissolved. I still miss the mile/800, but without the right training group I won't be satisfied with my times anyway.

Also, do you find that the traditional marathon predictors and training paces like the McMillan Calculator don't really make sense for a guy with speed? I tend to run everything fast because otherwise it doesn't even feel like a workout. How do you deal with this?

I have a question on tempo runs. I am training for the LA Marathon which is on March 21 and my goal is 2:30 or better. My PR is 2:30:42 from 2003 and my most recent marathon was in 2008 in 2:32:12. I PR'd with 85-90 miles a week for 9 weeks.

I feel like I am running out of time and should be doing long tempo runs of at least 10 miles. My mileage has been in the 80's for the last 10 weeks, but my longest tempo run has been 7 miles (average pace of 5:37). I have done a few 5 and 6 mile tempo runs and a half marathon in 1:13:09.

I guess the question is how long or how far should I build up my tempo run to? I have received advice from two coaches and one says that I should build up to 14 miles and the other one says that I really don't need more than 10 miles at tempo pace. I'm interested to find out what others have found as succesful tempo runs in training for a marathon.

BostonBound wrote:

Also, do you find that the traditional marathon predictors and training paces like the McMillan Calculator don't really make sense for a guy with speed? I tend to run everything fast because otherwise it doesn't even feel like a workout. How do you deal with this?

BB, I know you didn't ask me but I have a similar background as you so I will answer anyway.

I was always a speed guy. Although I'm old, heavier and slower now, when I was your age my speed was similar (though probably a tad slower). I was a 52-second 400m guy in high school. Usually raced the 800 and 4x400 relay in meets. College was all 65 mile weeks all fast all the time.

I took a few years off after college and when I got back into it, I realized that 1) I wasn't going to be setting any 400/800 PRs at that point and 2) There are a lot more 5k to marathon races out there than there are track meets. At least I could improve in longer distances.

I did fairly well in 5k - 10k races, even up to half marathon but when I finally went to marathoning, it took me YEARS to learn how to do it right. I would always go out fast and try to hold on. But the intensity you hold in a race -- even one as long as a half marathon -- is too much for the marathon. McMillan said I could do 2:40 based off of shorter race times so I would aim for 2:40. Only I'd go out in 1:18 and end up with 2:50 or (several times) over 3 hours. It took me until my 6th marathon to start to get it right.

For me as a short speed guy, I learned a couple of lessons. Having seen how well you do, I don't get the impression that you really need to be told these but I'll say them anyway. I'm also not so confident that these are universal rules or anything or that they necessarily will help you but they are practically commandments for me. If I ignore them I can kiss a good marathon goodbye:

1. **Relax** on easy days. Have your 1 or 2 (occasionally 3) days a week where you go harder but the other days, back off. For you that means slower than 6:50 pace I would imagine. Given your speed, you should probably have a several runs per week over 7:00 pace. It's hard to do this when you are feeling good, have all that speed, or are just plain bored but you can't train at 80, 90 mpw like you do at 50.

2. On marathon day, go out a lot slower than you think you should. It should feel like you are practically jogging for the first 10 miles. If you feel yourself starting to push during that period, back off.

3. Long tempos are GREAT (as mentioned by many) but they count as hard days. Don't try to turn an easy day into a hard tempo.

You are EASILY a 2:40 Boston runner if you do things right. On a course like Chicago or Berlin and with a properly paced marathon under your belt, you are more like a 2:30 guy. I am amazed to think what you could do with a few years of training and racing (and good health) in you.

Jew on, I think the long tempo run is CRUCIAL, but it sort of depends on what you mean by "tempo". I think 3 runs at goal MP, 10, 12 and 14 miles, in the middle of a long run (20-22 miles) is necessary. Each time you do this, the pace never varies. What does vary is the distance. They should be done every other week, in my opinion, and stopped about a month out from your goal race.

Running 10 miles at half marathon pace is probably not worth it. However, several 5-7 milers at half marathon pace, I think, has their place. I do a bunch of 5-7 milers at 1/2 MP early in my training cycle and then transition to MP stuff about 2 months out from my taper. I still go 1/2 MP, 10k pace, etc during those last 2 months, but most of my work is either aerobic running or at MP.

BB, when I started up again in 2009, I figured I needed a goal for a race I never ran before, because otherwise I would be disappointed with my times. Being around the NYC Marathon for the last 13 years, that became an obvious choice. I also figured if I wanted to race short again (3k-10k) that I needed a real base, and the only way I could get myself to do that was to train for a marathon.

You know, with Mcmillan its all relative. You can't take your PRs and compare that way. For example, I think I'll probably be in 16:00 road 5k shape this winter/spring leading up to Boston. Mcmillan has that as a 26:31 8K, 33:14 10k, 1:13:58 1/2 and 2:36 marathon.

That all sounds about right for me. If I run 26:50 for 8k in Central Park leading up to Boston, I'll be confident in my 2:37-39 goal... so that all sounds good.

BUT, I guarantee you, that when I was a 4:37 miler in hs (junior year) I couldn't run 2:36 for the marathon or 1:14 for the half or 33:00 for a 10k. But I could run 2:00 in thee 800 and 52 in a 400.

So I think it depends on where you are with your running and what kind of training you did to get there. Coming from marathon training, all the times seem about right. Coming from 800 or mile training, nothing after 5k sounds right!

2ndTimeMarathoner wrote:

So I think it depends on where you are with your running and what kind of training you did to get there. Coming from marathon training, all the times seem about right. Coming from 800 or mile training, nothing after 5k sounds right!

Agreed. McMillan has my marathon around 2:27-2:28 with my 5k and 10k PRs, but those PRs were set training specifically for those events, when I was in that kind of shape, I probably would've run closer to 2:40-2:45.

I've got a half marathon and 10k as part of my Boston training, if I run 1:11:5x and 32:3x, I think I have a shot a 2:30, and should definitely hit 2:32.

Jew On - I've only done one marathon, so take my advice however you feel. The only MP stuff I think you should do should be coupled with your long runs (20+ miles). A straight 10 mile MP run will probably be taxing, but still fairly easy...throw that at the end of a 22 mile run, you know you're fit.

oh no. May have strained my groin. Going to take a few days off and hope for the best. I guess it's better to have this happen now rather than in a month or two. Ugh.

Stay healthy out there.