hm134 wrote:
was sell really a 10 minute two miler in HS???? what were his other times?
Interview with Brian Sell
Posted on September 28, 2006, Interview conducted September 25, 2006
By Duncan Larkin
Until the 2004 U.S. Olympic Marathon Trials, Brian Sell was a relatively unknown member of the Hansons-Brooks Distance Project. After all, he had claimed a modest 10:06 two-mile PR in high school and had subsequently run for Saint Francis University, a small Division I school in rural Pennsylvania. So when Sell boldly took the lead at mile seven in the Olympic Trials race and held it until mile 22, he caught many observers by complete surprise. Sell went on to place 12th in the Trials.
In 2005, Sell continued to surprise the running world by finishing ninth in the marathon at the IAAF World Championships in Helsinki, Finland, and leading the U.S. to a fourth place finish in what doubled as the World Cup Marathon. In May of 2005, Sell earned his first U.S. title by winning the USA 25k Championships title at the River Bank Run in Grand Rapids, Michigan, and running the seventh-fastest time ever by an American (1:15:27).
Sell has built upon this success in 2006. In January, he won the USA Half Marathon Championships at the Aramco Houston Half Marathon. In April, he shaved more than two minutes off his marathon PR (2:10:55) and placed fourth overall at the B.A.A. Boston Marathon. In August, Sell easily won the Chicago Distance Classic Half Marathon running it as a 'marathon pace' run in 1:04:25, more than a minute ahead of the second-place finisher. He is currently setting his sights on the LaSalle Bank Chicago Marathon, where he hopes to run a personal best and lay down a time that will set him up to compete for a place on the 2008 U.S. Olympic marathon team.
Sell, 28, is a native Woodbury, Pennsylvania, and now resides in Rochester Hills, Michigan.
What did you run today?
We had a workout yesterday, so today was just a mileage day. It was supposed to be a 14 and 8 and ended up being about 15 and 8. Clint Verran and I live about four miles from where we meet up every morning and so we get a few extra miles that way, because we don't have to drive to where we meet [the rest of the team].
Before the 2006 Boston Marathon, you said you were running most of your recovery runs at 6:00 pace. Is that still true?
Yeah, we run 6:00 to 6:30 pace.
Do you ever run a slower pace than that? Have you ever done recovery runs at 7:00 or even 8:00 pace?
We probably start out at about that pace, but with the group we have, we generally run [faster]. Today's run was one of the easiest runs we've done in a while and it we ran it just under 6:30 average. I never can really tell because on some days 5:00 pace feels like 7:00 pace. We don't really wear GPS's or anything.
Do you have mile markers on your run routes to help with pace?
No, not really. We have a rails-to-trails [route] that we run on for a good portion of most of our runs. It has half-mile splits, so we can get an idea. I usually just figure 6:30 pace for everything. In college we figured everything was 7:00 pace. Now it's kind of like we found most of our runs start at 7-7:30 and by the end of the run we are at high fives or low sixes. I just figure 6:30 is kind of a safe estimate of an average.
You've said that you want to run a 2:09 at the LaSalle Bank Chicago Marathon next month. Where did the 2:09 goal come from?
I think Chicago is a little bit faster than Boston. I think Boston's a tough course, but not a slow course. 2:09 is just kind of the next minute down. I'd be happy with anything under 2:10—from a 2:08-high to a 2:09:59. I consider it an 'on-the-way-to-the-Trials' goal. If I run that, it would give me a good feeling about possibly making the Olympic Team, if I have a good performance at the Trials.
At Chicago are you going to have anybody pacing you?
No, I don't think so. Clint [Verran] was talking about going halfway with me, but I think he's probably going to slow that down and run 1:05:30-1:06.
How are you going to try to run a 2:09? Are you going to plan to run it even splits?
I'm going to try to run even splits. I'm going to try to run through the half at 1:04:30-1:04:50 and try and go sub 2:10 that way—evenly. That was the plan at the Chicago Distance Classic in August—to try to run marathon pace. I wanted to run 1:04:30 and I ended up running a 1:04:25, so it was pretty close. I'm planning on being totally alone because looking at the entry list for Chicago, there's a dozen Kenyans that are sub 2:08. I would imagine that there's a very good opportunity for a world record at Chicago this year. Just looking at races past, Chicago is not like Boston where the Kenyans go out like crazy and they just slowly fall apart and you catch them in the second half. It's more of an 'all together with a mile to go' effort. I think in past years, the top five have all been under 2:08. I'm not really expecting to place high, but I'd like to hit that time goal.
You mentioned after the Chicago Distance Classic that the race was a training run. Did you feel like 64 minutes was a relaxed pace?
No. I wouldn't say it was real relaxed. We had been only training for three weeks at that point, so we weren't super fit. But I don't think Chicago's going to feel relaxed. Any time you try and knock a minute or two off your time, you've got to expect it to be the most pain you've ever been in. I'm expecting the worst and hoping for the best.
You guys do what you call a 'marquee workout' where you run 2 x 6 miles at five seconds faster than goal pace per mile, with 10:00 recovery. How do you respond to that workout? Is that a workout where you seek to build confidence? What happens when you don't run the pace and you don't get good biofeedback during it?
It can go either way. If it's a killer and you're not hitting the times, it's a literally a workout where you might consider changing your goals for the marathon. A lot of factors play into that. When we did it before Boston, it was like 40 degrees and real windy, so we factored that in. But pretty much everyone that's been able to run a good marathon has been able to nail that workout. It's a pretty good indicator, I think, from past experience.
Do you guys only do that workout once?
Yes. Along with that we've recently added a 26.2-kilometer marathon simulation run, which is run at marathon pace. We did that before Boston and it really worked out well, so it's become just as important as the 2 x 6 mile workout.
When do you do these workouts?
The 26.2k is about a month out. And the 2 x 6 mile workout is a week and a half later, so about three weeks out from the marathon.
Do you run the 2 x 6 on a track?
No we do it on a trail. We actually have a six-mile loop that goes around the lake out here and every quarter mile is marked, so it's pretty convenient to get into a groove and hit your pace, because you have a checkpoint about every minute or so.
You've struggled in your career. You've been in ruts and have come close to hanging it up, but you've still been able to keep running because of some breakthrough races. What advice do you have for stuck marathoners/runners?
I honestly don't know. I wish there were an easy explanation. I'm sure there were times when I was overtrained. I think there were times when my nutrition wasn't where it should have been or I was working too much—a lot of different factors. With the marathon, it's such a long race. It can be compared to the time you put into it. You're going to see a gradual progression. If it doesn't happen once or twice and you give it time, it will eventually come around, I guess. I think the key is consistency and just sticking with it. It's a lot like the race itself.
The Olympic Trials course in New York City will most likely be hilly. Do you do hill repeats?
We don't do hill repeats now. Before Boston, to prepare for the first section of the race, we did a lot of downhill repeats to get our quads beat up from going downhill. Toward the end, we mixed in some rolling stuff. [Hansons-Brooks coaches] Kevin and Keith [Hanson] set up the 26.2 kilometer simulator on a course that was almost exactly like Boston. They had the hills worked out where around 17-21 you had the rolling hills like Heartbreak Hill at Boston and then you had a nice gradual downhill like the last five miles of Boston. It was really similar to the course. I think that helped a lot, and running the downhills too. For New York, I would imagine we will run some more rolling stuff. We actually have a two-mile loop out here that we do that's very hilly, and I imagine we'll be doing a lot more of it since New York will be a criterium course like that. We definitely try to simulate the race and the conditions.
Do you wear a heart rate monitor?
No a few of the guys on the team do, but I never have. I went to Saint Francis University, that's a little Division I school in Pennsylvania, and we were pretty backward when it came to running [there]. We ran in the same pair of shoes for cross country and indoor/outdoor track for a whole year. We never really wore heart rate monitors or anything like that. I never wore a technical running T-shirt and shorts till I got here. I think [a heart rate monitor] is a useful training tool, I just never really got into it. I never got one and probably never will.
Do you ever check your pulse after a workout?
No. Clint [Verran] runs with a heart rate monitor a little bit, off and on, maybe once or twice a week. He's a physical therapist, so I think he's more into the scientific kind of things that way. I think a few of the guys on the team do wear a heart rate monitors.
How do you gauge recovery? How do you know that you're ready for a workout again?
I honestly think that training with the team can hurt as much as it helps, because when you train with a group of 8-10 guys who are out there pushing a workout, you don't want to be the first guy to fall off of the pack. That's good because it makes you buck up and stick with it, but it can be bad sometimes. There's probably a greater percentage of casualties in a training group like that, especially for the marathon. In fact, we just had a guy, Jeff Gaudette, injure his calf about a week ago, and he was planning on running Chicago. So there's good and bad with [group training]. As far as recovery goes, in the first couple years I was here, I'm sure I wasn't getting recovered. You just kind of gut through the runs where you are feeling completely dead and eventually your fitness gets to the point that even on days where you don't feel like going, you can still run decently. But it is very important to pick and choose your days. One thing I didn't do very well—which I see a lot of the new guys doing a lot better than I did—is they are not afraid to drop off the group and take an easy day every now and then.
On the web site ChasingKimbia.com, there's a video of a group of Kenyans practicing taking fluids. Do you guys do that kind of thing?
Yes. We usually take our own bottles of Gatorade or whatever out to the lake that has the quarter miles marked off, and they will go out there and give us half-mile splits and water bottles every two miles or so. We do practice it a lot. It definitely helps. I think that in the marathon, getting your fluids is one of the most important things that you can do.
What are you drinking out there?
Actually Clint got me into a Gatorade and Red Bull mix. We drink that in most marathons at every 5k. We'll take those up until 35-40k. It's about 6-8 ounces. That's all I use. I honestly haven't experimented too much with it. It worked in Helsinki for me and it worked in Boston. It's probably what I'm going to use in Chicago.
What's the hardest workout you've ever run?
I think the first couple 2 x 6 milers we did. Even before I decided to run the marathon, I would do the 2 x 6 workout in a build-up phase. In college, we would consider a three-mile tempo a really long run—a hard workout. And to run 2 x 6 miles was probably the worst one. Track workouts are hard for me, even if they really aren't hard on paper. 4:20-4:30 pace is just killer for me. I think I'd rather run a six-mile tempo rather than 2 x 1 mile in 4:20, just because it's mentally harder for me to run fast on the track for some reason.
Do you guys ever run quarters?
No. In the marathon build-up, the only track work we do is 8 x 1k. We just did that a couple days ago.
How much rest do you take between those intervals?
We jog one lap—about 2:00. The other track workout we do is a 5 x 1 mile at about 20 seconds faster than marathon pace, so that's about 4:35 per mile right now. That's about the only track work we do. About a week out we will do 3 x 2 mile on the track at marathon pace. It's just more of a turnover type workout. It's nothing really important.
Regarding the upcoming 2007 U.S. Olympic Marathon Trials, it will arguably be one of the most competitive Trials in recent memory. The deep field combined with the challenging course should make it interesting. What is it going take to finish in the top three, in light of all this? Are you going to do anything different in your training?
I might bump my mileage up a little. It's going to be more of the same. Kevin and Keith have drilled into us the last four years that you can pretty much guarantee a 2:09-2:10 effort will make the team. And we are trusting that this will be the case. I hope it is. They've done their research. A 2:09 has made the team every year. I'm hoping that that happens. I honestly think that the U.S. trials in 2007 in New York will be just as good as Kenya's and Ethiopia's trials, just because a 2:09 will barely make third. There's going to be 10-12 guys there capable of running sub 2:10. I'm banking on it being a very tough effort. It kind of stinks that a 2:14 made the Olympic team in 2000 in Pitsburgh. We've come a long way. It'd be nice to make the team, but it would be nicer to make the team against those kind of odds instead of just making the team with no hope for a medal. I think whoever makes the team this time is going to have a legitimate shot at a medal or a top-10 finish in the Olympics. I mean look at what Meb [Keflezighi] and Alan [Culpepper] did over there in 2004.
In your past, did you know deep down that you were a 2:10 marathoner? Was it a surprise? Was there a point when you exceeded your own expectations?
Yeah. I think 2:10:55 at Boston worked out to be 4:59 pace for 26.2 miles. After the race, I was sitting in the elite suite, waiting to get drug tested, and I was thinking about how in high school my 3,200 meter PR was 10:06. I started thinking about how I just ran 26 miles faster than I could run two miles in high school. I think that was a big thing. I just hope that people look at it and say, 'Hey if this yahoo can do it, then I can do it too.' That'd be cool if people thought that. It's just a matter of putting the miles in and working. It's not so much how much talent you have. I hope. If [Dathan] Ritzenhein goes and runs 2:06 in New York, then I'll scratch my head and say, 'Wow, maybe talent has a lot more to do with it.' Anyone who puts the miles and workouts in can do it, pretty much. In high school, a three mile run was a long run for me and I never would have thought that I could break 5:00 pace for 26 [miles]. I put a lot into it. I mean, I've run an average of 110 miles a week for the last five years. I put a lot into it and I've gotten a lot out it. We just bought a house in February and got a lot of nice things thanks to running, and so I wouldn't trade anything for it.
I'd like to read you two quotes, one is yours and the other is Dathan Ritzenhein's. Earlier this year, in a mensracing.com interview, you said, 'I'm training as hard as I can, and it's tough when you see what some guys can do. Guys like [Dathan] Ritzenhein, it seems like they're injured half the year, and then they come off that and run great.' Shortly thereafter, in an interview with Runner's World, Dathan Ritzenhein said, 'Luckily, those guys like myself and Meb [Keflezighi] and Alan [Culpepper]—I don't want to say anything bad about [Brian Sell]—but we have a lot more talent, probably, straight off the boards and maybe we don't have to run 160 miles a week to get to that same level. I really admire [Sell] and those guys who are doing that, because it doesn't come quite as easy for them.' What's your reaction to this exchange regarding natural talent versus hard work and high mileage? Do you believe that the marathon is a level playing field where a person such as yourself with a 10:06 high school two mile PR can compete with a person with an 8:44 PR? How much of it is just hard work?
Well, I hope it's a lot. I guess we'll find out when [Dathan Ritzenhein] runs New York. I think talent has a lot to do with it. I think for distances around two miles it's a 90:10 talent-hard work ratio. For distances like the marathon, I say it's closer to 50-50. Obviously Meb [Keflezighi] is a great marathoner and Abdi [Abdirahman] has shown that he can run really well in the marathon and the half marathon. I mean [Abdirahman] just ran 1:01 in the half marathon. I don't think he really gets way up there in mileage and I know that a high mileage week for Meb would be around 120. Obviously talent does play a big role in it. I'm not going to try and kid myself and say, 'All I have to do is run 300 miles a week.' I'm not going to kid myself and read that Ritzenhein is running only 100 miles a week going into the Trials and since I'm running 170, that I'll walk all over him. But I hope it does level it a little bit, that would be nice.
In reading your logs, we noticed that on September 7th, Mike Morgan, Clint Verran and you were throwing squirrels at one another. Can you please elaborate?
We were all out running one morning and there was a dead squirrel out in the middle of the road and I just picked it up and chucked it at Morgan. You know, some of these guys are from the city. I'm from the sticks and grew up raising pigs so it doesn't really disgust me that much, but they were pretty freaked out about it. I did it more for the shock value, I guess. I came home and washed my hands before breakfast, though.