Team GB. 1987 versus 2007

Don't you normally wait till the end of the season for this Bazza?

Perhaps compare lifetime bests for those selected for the 87 and 07 world champs.

Good to see you are still around anyway.

Let's wait until the end of the season for such comparisons...

I will be very surprised (but pleased) if there are any great advances between now and the end of the year.

If you look at the 5k, 10k, steeple mot of those guys were running regularly on the European circuit, how many of our blokes can even get a run in a grand prix 2 meet now? Not many.

On the womens side, considering we hear so much about how strong our women are over the distances it is quite surprising how much better we were twenty years ago.

Yes, the comparison is none too favourable.

And to think we used to beat our athletes up over supposed modest performances back then!

Nonetheless, hats off to all those getting on with it here and now.

How has this come about?

More than likely the socio- economic factors make it a lot harder for any individual to selflessly devote their entire energies into getting to a super level.

I remember vividly the hardship Mark Rowland and his family endured during '85 to '88. There were times when the bitter reality of having to throw away all the years of toil, because of a need to make ends meet, were indeed a real possibility.

I wonder how many individuals today can afford to make the sacrifices that are needed to attain the current world elite level?

A bleak prognosis?

Perhaps.

It does mean however that anyone attaining the upper echelons of the sport has done bloody well indeed!

Bazza wrote:

I will be very surprised (but pleased) if there are any great advances between now and the end of the year.

Rimmer had a great victory last night and many people have been predicting a 1.44.xx soon

Baddeley ran a fast 1km last night, again, who would disagree he will be 3.33.xx by the end of year?

Farah is going to run faster than 13.40 in Osaka.

Likewise, who thinks Lyne will not break 2 min?

When operating at near world class level, how big an improvement are you looking for to describe it as a "great advance"?

These guys may not run this fast in osaka but there are several golden leagues left in september.

yeah, clearly the likes of Farah are going to post faster times but i doubt that those second and third ranked runners are likely to go much quicker (even if they get the opportunity).

Considering Lemoncello's time was indoors you'd hope he could run at least marginally faster outdoors!

Farah won't beat 13.40 by much in Osaka, it's going to be awfully hot and humid there.

I think Jessica Ennis is the most exciting talent, quite a good athlete too.

haven't got time to look it up but if you stick in 1997 times you will probably see that times may be starting to look up (or I may be wrong and then we do have to worry!!)

Farah has run a 13:09 - So you are saying that he will run 31 seconds slower because of the heat?

Look at Athens (30 degrees + heat) - to make the final I think a 13:25 or so was the last spot which was Tim Broe or Cragg in a pretty loaded field and their best time were only around 13:13 or so.

Also Farah was one the best performers in the heat in Mombasa. I suspect he will be a finalist at world champs.

Could be interesting final this year in which I suspect will have the lowest contigent of africans for a long time with Cragg , Mottram , Teg , Farah all likely to make the finals

Not suprised by the Women's times, they really were amazing times for British Women's middle distance.

Ten years on and the times weren't that quick, neither were they in Men's.

Agree that there will still be a few improvements in performances. Well done to Rimmer and Baddeley last night. We may not have the depth that we have nejoyed in the past but we may have a few world class athletes to get excited / inspired by!

If the conditions in Osaka are really tough, then Farah could certainly run 30 seconds or so slower than what he might run in ideal conditons.

What was the Athens final won in? 13.14

Rather than dwell on the past or put our decline all down to social factors, etc should we (or someone in UKA at least) not be drawing up a plan of how things will be improved. this might cover some defined targets e.g. we will have 5 men running sub 1.46 for 800m by 2009 (and perhaps 3 sub 1.45 by 2010). Then someone has to work out how to do it - who will these athletes most likely be, what help do they need, who will coach them, do their coaches need help, where will they race, etc.

This is not rocket science - it happens in business all the time. At the moment we seem to just hope for the best that someone will emerge from somewhere.

I would focus on one or two events - probably the 800m and 1500m - as we are not too far away in these distances and British runners have in the past achieved times that are likely to put them on the top of the podium at all levels

We are just too far away at 5k,10k and steeplechase at the moment although obviously keep working with those already in the system. However, the reality is that we are more likely to achieve success in the shorter middle distance events.

The success of athletes like Kelly Holmes and Paula Radcliffe shows the public is crying out for our athletes to be successful and once we can start to show some success sponsors etc are more likely to want to be part of the success and bring in further funding to help develop other areas.

its the old 'example of 1' but given our fastest steeplechaser since Tom Hanlon has achieved that level completely outside the UK system I'd say we need to be looking at a complete rebuilding of the structure for distance running. We'll always produce good 800 and 1500 runners, esp. with the strength of the BMC events, what we need is incentive for many of the 3.40 types to think about moving up to 5K & 10K. I'm not sure this is a UKA thing, more about the sport (distance running) in general.

Chris Q wrote:

Rather than dwell on the past or put our decline all down to social factors, etc should we (or someone in UKA at least) not be drawing up a plan of how things will be improved. this might cover some defined targets e.g. we will have 5 men running sub 1.46 for 800m by 2009 (and perhaps 3 sub 1.45 by 2010). Then someone has to work out how to do it - who will these athletes most likely be, what help do they need, who will coach them, do their coaches need help, where will they race, etc.

This is not rocket science - it happens in business all the time. At the moment we seem to just hope for the best that someone will emerge from somewhere.

good post - though personally I think we need a target for 2012 of having three athletes in every event.

strike me wrote:

haven't got time to look it up but if you stick in 1997 times you will probably see that times may be starting to look up (or I may be wrong and then we do have to worry!!)

list updated to include top 3 from 1997 - in general the men were still performing quite well and certainly better than now. There is only event - the chase - where the third best man in 07 is better than the third best man in 97.

The women's times on the whole had dropped off a little by 97 but the figures show that things have improved. Perhaps that provides a glimmer of hope for the men?

men

800m

1987

1:43.41 Peter Elliott

1.44.45 Tom McKean

1.45.41 Steve Cram

1997

1.46.05 Mark Sesay

1.46.36 Paul Hart

1.46.4 Paul Walker

2007

1:45.17 Michael Rimmer

1.46.32 Andy Baddeley

1:46.69 James McIlroy

1500m

1987

3.31.43 Steve Cram

3.33.23 Peter Elliott

3.33.34 Steve Crabb

1997

3.31.86 John Mayock

3.32.34 Anthony Whiteman

3.34.59 Kevin Mackay

2007

3:34.74 Andy Baddeley

3:38.33 Neil Speaight

3:38.46 Nick McCormick

5000m

1987

13.10.48 Jack Buckner

13.20.00 Gary Staines

13.23.19 Steve Ovett

1997

13.17.21 Keith Cullen

13.18.06 Ian Gillespie

13.20.09 Andrian Passey

2007

13:33.81 Chris Thompson

13:40.19 Mohamed Farah

13:46.00i Andrew Lemoncello

10000m

1987

27:59.24 Carl Thackery

28.03.08 Steve Binns

28.22.05 Nick Rose

1997

27.27.47 Jon Brown

27.53.35 Paul Evans

28.09.10. Rob Denmark

2007

28:28.04 Andrew Lemoncello

28:40.85 Phil Nicholls

28:44.27 Antony Ford

Marathon

1987

2:10.11 Hugh Jones

2.10.32 Charlie Spedding

2.12.32 John Grahan

1997

2.08.36 Richard Nerurkar

2.09.18 Paul Evans

2.10.13 Jon Brown

2007

2:14:14 Dan Robinson

2:17:49 Andi Jones

2:20:26 Richie Gardiner

3000m s/c

1987

8:20.68 Roger Hackney

8.21.03 Mark Rowland

8.23.99 Colin Reitz

1997

8.28.54 Rob Hough

8.39.70 Spencer Duval

8.42.5 Justin Chaston

2007

8:23.74 Andrew Lemoncello

8:30.41 Jermaine Mays

8:31.40 Frank Tickner

women

800m

1987

1.58.45 Kirsty Wade

1.58.97 Shireen Bailey

1.59.30 Diane Edwards

1997

1.57.14 Kelly Holmes

2.01.62 Diane Modahl

2.02.18 Hayley Parry

2007

1.59.63 Marilyn Okoro

1.59.88i Jenny Meadows

2.00.18 Jemma Simpson

1500m

1987

4.00.73 Kirsty Wade

4.01.20 Yvonne Murray

4.01.38 Liz Lynch (McColgan)

1997

3.58.07 Kelly Holmes

4.06.93 Paula Radcliffe

4.11.00 Alison Wyeth

2007

4.05.81i Helen Clitheroe

4.06.22 Lisa Dobriskey

4.08.74 Abby Westley

3000m

1987

8.39.85 Liz Lynch

8.42.07 Yvonne Murray

8.43.82 Wendy Sly

1997

8.35.28 Paula Radcliffe

9.05.87 Jo Pavey

9.17.3 Lucy Wright

2007

8.31.50 Jo Pavey

8.47.25 Lisa Dobriskey

8.51.94 Helen Clitheroe

5000m

1987

15.01.08 Liz Lynch

15.03.22 Angela Tooby

15.21.45 Wendy Sly

1997

14.45.51 Paula Radcliffe

15.34.40 Lucy Elliot

15.39.08 Yvonne Murray

2007

15.12.34 Jo Pavey

15.29.10 Kate Reed

15.37.6 Hayley Yelling

10000m

1987

31.19.82 Liz Lynch

31.55.30 Angela Tooby

32.24.63 Sue Crehan

1997

32:51.02 Vikki McPherson

33:38.36 Jo Thompson

33:41.16 Lucy Wright

2007

31.26.94 Jo Pavey

32.01.43 Hayley Yelling

32.45.94 Aine Hoban

Marathon

1987

2.26.51 Pricilla Welch

2.30.15 Veronique Marot

2.32.28 Paula Fudge

1997

2.26.52 Liz McColgan

2.29.03 Marion Sutton

2.39.02 Danielle Sanderson

2007

2.25.41 Mara Yamauchi

2.30.44 Liz Yelling

2.45.54 Wendy Nicholls

Ask Farah himself if he he thinks he will run 30 seconds slower because of the heat, not a chance. I say to make the final you will have to run around 13:25 even in that sort of heat.

A different way wrote:

its the old 'example of 1' but given our fastest steeplechaser since Tom Hanlon has achieved that level completely outside the UK system I'd say we need to be looking at a complete rebuilding of the structure for distance running. We'll always produce good 800 and 1500 runners, esp. with the strength of the BMC events, what we need is incentive for many of the 3.40 types to think about moving up to 5K & 10K. I'm not sure this is a UKA thing, more about the sport (distance running) in general.

Surely the point is that whilst we are producing "decent" - and it is a relative term to what most of us are capable of - 800m and 1500m runners, we are not producing significant numbers of truly World Class athletes - at least not amongst the men. We "only" need to produce athletes running say 1.43-1.44 - and we have produced several of in the past - and we will have athletes challenging for major medals.

We could take a 3.40 runner and encourage them to 5000m but even if they ran around 13.10 - and I am not sure how many 13.10 runners can "only" run 3.40 - they are still going to be 20 seconds plus off the pace.

Nothwithstanding, my overall point was that we need a clear set of goals and some idea of how we are going to achieve those.