sub30 10k in the USA

I seriously doubt it's that many. I would even doubt it's half as many, but maybe. I can still remember when a 29:31 made T&F News' top 50 list in the early 1990s, back when USA distance running was admittedly pathetic.

I can guarantee it's not that many...at least not "on the track" as the posters above is asking. Who knows with Road Races and junk though.

we only get about 10-15 guys sub 30 on the track in the uk each year (although about 25-30 on the roads)

malmo might have a more comprehensive list that takes it out to 30:00 but i found this from 2005 on the USATF site:

27:33.47 9 Abdi Abdirahman Nike 5/29 Hengelo

27:52.01 13 Abdirahman 8/8 Helsinki

27:59.72 5rA Ian Dobson Stanford 5/1 Stanford

28:03.11 6rA Chris Graff Asics 5/1 Stanford

28:10.57 2 Meb Keflezighi Nike 6/23 Carson

28:15.52 AJR 1 Galen Rupp Oregon 5/7 Eugene

28:17.46 10rA Matt Gonzales New Mexico 5/1 Stanford

28:31.39 4s1 Matt Lane Nike 3/25 Stanford

28:33.31 2 Brett Schoolmeester Colorado 4/15 Walnut

28:34.65 3 Matt Downin New Balance 6/23 Carson

28:35.86 6s1 Rod Koborsi Georgetown 3/25 Stanford

28:35.95 4 James Carney Big Sur DP 6/23 Carson

28:37.64 3 Jason Hubbard Unat. 4/15 Walnut

28:37.97 6 Joe Driscoll Zap Fitness 6/23 Carson

28:38.72 4 Patrick Thomas Gildea NYAC 4/15 Walnut

28:39.93 5 Josh Rohatinsky BYU 4/15 Walnut

28:43.44 9 Ryan Kirkpatrick Unat. 6/23 Carson

28:43.48 6 Celedonio Rodriguez Adams St. 4/15 Walnut

28:44.57 7s1 Trent Briney Hansons-Brooks 3/25 Stanford

28:45.01 11 Steve Sundell Nike Farm Team 6/23 Carson

28:45.32 9s1 Tim Nelson Wisconsin 3/25 Stanford

28:45.60 15rA Edward Torres Reebok 5/1 Stanford

28:49.89 12s1 Ryan Sheehan St. Francis 3/25 Stanford

28:50.07 13 Josh Eberly Hansons-Brooks 6/23 Carson

28:52.37 1rB Sergio Reyes Asics Aggies 5/1 Stanford

28:52.89 2rB Forrest Braden Bronco TC 5/1 Stanford

28:54.63 13s1 Casey Burchill Arizona St. 3/25 Stanford

28:54.65 14s1 Dave Ernsberger Central Michigan 3/25 Stanford

28:55.26 15s1 Jason Sandfort Arkansas 3/25 Stanford

28:56.59 16rA Andrew Carlson Minnesota 5/1 Stanford

28:58.77 4rB John Moore Portland 5/1 Stanford

28:59.12 17s1 Sean Quigley La Salle 3/25 Stanford

28:59.27 18s1 Brett Gotcher Stanford 3/25 Stanford

28:59.35 1s2 Kaleb VanOrt Notre Dame 3/25 Stanford

29:00.45 2s2 Karl Dusen Columbia 3/25 Stanford

29:00.85 19s1 Andrew Middleton Texas 3/25 Stanford

29:01.06 20s1 Fernando Cabada Virginia Intermont 3/25 Stanford

29:02.53 10 Delfino Arevalo Utah 4/15 Walnut

29:03.25 3 Mike Donnelly Nike 5/7 Eugene

29:03.43 21s1 Tim Moore Notre Dame 3/25 Stanford

29:04.48 4s2 Luke Humphrey Hansons-Brooks 3/25 Stanford

29:04.55 5s2 Brian Dumm Air Force Academy 3/25 Stanford

29:04.72 6rB Matt Levassiur Adams St. 5/1 Stanford

29:06.11 22s1 Mike Nielson Utah St. 3/25 Stanford

29:07.38 23s1 Bobby Lockhart Wisconsin 3/25 Stanford

Just think about how many runners break 30 in college then probably triple that number and your pretty close.

I'd say less than 100 actually break 30 every year

Doesn't mean there is not 200 differant people who could break 30 if they wanted to.

A lot of road guys never even run on the track could probably break 30.

Just like i'm sure a number of 5000, steeple, and 1 miler guys could break 30 but just never run 10000 on the track.

A <30 10k is still a great accomplishment.

The US population is 300 million now -- compared to late 80's population, that's another ~70 million people. You'd reasonably have to expect 50 US guys running for 10k what only 35 could do 15-20 years ago.

The 10k world record is down ~3% since about 1990, so the current crop is actually just about keeping up, not closing the gap at all.

Top 50 10k (1990)~29.7 x .97 = ~29 flat for 10k (2007)

The number of racing opportunities for a fast 10k have gone up substantially. There was once no Stanford Invite, and Mt. Sac was once much more of an elite event. Now go look at the current US list, and tell me where the best chances for a US list mark in the 10k are?

Anyway, here were the best non-African marks 20 years ago.

800m <142

1500 <330

5000 13:01

10000 <27:20

Marathon 2:07

One more thing-- the current 10k WR holder runs less miles/week than the first to break 28' (and 29') for the distance.

How do you know that the current 10K WR holder runs less miles/week than the first to break 28/29' for the distance? Don't spread such stupidities. Bekele and Geb have both been noted as extremely high mileage athletes (3hr long runs included).

Zatopek and Clarke gave good accounts of their training schedules. You should read them. Note that Clark lost in the Olympic final to someone running about half the weekly miles.

Bekele's volume is lower than both Z or C. Actually he trains much much harder, is much lighter, and most notably, very much faster over shorter distances.

I actually have read both accounts of training of Zatopek and Clarke, including his auto-biography, and I would refer you to those accounts and re-asses your statement that Bekele trained "much much harder" than a Zatopek or a Clarke. Do not confuse talent and speed with hard work.

dsrunner wrote:

One more thing-- the current 10k WR holder runs less miles/week than the first to break 28' (and 29') for the distance.

That's a load of horseshit.

Well,I assume youre joking??

Or confusing Bekele's weekly km reports for miles?

Or perhaps addition has always been a problem?

dsrunner wrote:

Zatopek and Clarke gave good accounts of their training schedules. You should read them. Note that Clark lost in the Olympic final to someone running about half the weekly miles.

Bekele's volume is lower than both Z or C. Actually he trains much much harder, is much lighter, and most notably, very much faster over shorter distances.

Where did you get the stats of Zatopek's weight? As far as I know, he was around 58-60kg between 1949-56 and was 174cm tall (5-7 to 5-8). Bekel's weight is listed to be 56kg (which is very similar to Zatopek's) and is only 163cm tall. So Bekele is heavier when compred cm/kg than Zatopek.

Both of them are/were high mileage guys, with that difference, that Zatopek was experimenting on himself, whereas Bekele has a team of doctors and trainers around him as wel as world class sparrings. Well, and the level of talent, which was mediocre in Zatopek's instance and is highest ever in Bekele's instance.

Please post where you have seen an account of a year of training volume for Bekele. I seriously doubt it is very different from that of Zatopek or Clarke. Also you have no idea how hard some of the Africans train.

All I see is yet another example of someone looking for an excuse not to run mileage; looking for a short cut.

Zatopek 65kg.

Nobby, so you believe Mills was being lazy when he was hammering away a mere 70/week to win 10k gold?

Pre taking a big old shortcut when he rans mile reps <4:05?

And Hall slacking off when he decides to run 12 miles at 450 pace rather than jog an easy 20-30?

Youre kidding, right?

Nobby has never said to run slow. Not once nor did his mentor. Hall runs a lot of miles, as did Pre. Viren who kicked Pre's ass did even more. That does not mean more miles is better, that just means Viren was sick. Viren ran the method Nobby preaches he has 4 gold medals and is perhaps the greatest Olympic distance runner in the last 40 years.

dsrunner wrote:

And Hall slacking off when he decides to run 12 miles at 450 pace rather than jog an easy 20-30?

You were doing ok til you got here...bad example. Hall runs hard...but still runs very high millage. And hes been doing 15 mile tempo runs now i believe.

Just wanted to see where the madness might stop. Im glad someone else thinks Hall might be doing enough.

Volume is not the only training variable.

You've got Zatopek's weight wrong. What's your source? I know that his wife was at least 6kgs heavier than him and in all sources Emil is listed between 58-60kgs. In 1952, his probably best year (in terms of medals, not records, for which 1954 was better) he was constantly under 60kgs. At least that's what he claims in his own (and most comprehensive) book: Dana and Emil Zatopek speaking (first ed. 1963, the title is translated from Czech language).

Other international articles and books were not authorized until 1990, because Zatopek was not allowed to give interviews, esp. after his famous proclamation against Russian invasion in 1968. Before, he was not willing to reveal much. After 1990, lot's of false articles appeared, and very little of them were authorized.