Double Whammy? Hadd do you know what he is taking about

Thanks, Balance. I was wondering if Olbrecht mentions about recovery on land vs. in the water. I know heart rates go down faster in the water after a swim interval. I know that swimmers seem to take shorter rests than runners do when performing interval workouts with workbouts of similar duration and intensity. Does the lactate go down faster in the water too? I'm thinking you could do an experiment where group A runs 60 seconds all out and recovers on land, group B runs 60 seconds all out and recovers in the water, Group C swims 60 seconds all out and recovers in the water, Group D swims 60 seconds all out and recovers on land. Measure the lactate of all groups right after the 60 second effort and then every minute during recovery. What do you think would happen?

Balance

Great posts, keep on going, we need you here.

That´s not a mistake. Meanwhile Van Aaken advises high mileage really basically in slow/easy runs and he also said that from times to times that´s good to take a day off that´s is highly recommended. He used to say that "one day rest that´s find, but 2 or more that´s no good". In the 70´s when i did get contact with Ernst van Aaken ideas i question myself about what you ask me now, and then when i did share some letters with van Aaken he said that he kkep his statement – he advises a day rest from time to time. If you look to an article which the title is “The XXI Century runner” " an article that he did in the late 70s you take a look for that runner schedule profile and you would see: 40 kilos of daily runs divided by 3 to 5 sessions a day - eating very little - slip just 5 hours a day - and listen some music to relax. The runner that´s student resident in his university with all training facilities. He goes out of the classes and he starts training – no time waist. But there you see that weekly that same runner have a day rest in his training schedule.

The fact that´s true that you see 2 days off in the Norporth schedule but that´s not because VA changed ideas about days off. That´s because Norporth have a job or some daily life responsibilities – he was never been a professional runner, I did a full time job, and 2 days off that also because he did long travels to compete and VA taught that´s better to rest, all those reasons are what enables him to train daily. Thus you need to understand that in one side you have the VA concepts - the ideal runner from the future (that´s the present) easy volume miles runs BUT ther´s some rest days, the other side you have real life - and despite VA prescribes daily runs (except a day off from times to times) with some runners they simply weren´t able to follow such volume schedules and/or they need to train less than the VA prescribes as optimal. That´s also the case of the master female marathon runner - i don´t remember the name right now - that used to train some 3miles to 6 miles but she runs run the marathon and 100 kilos runs- she have no time to train more than what she did due to daily obligations.

One more point that most of people miss to understand - that´s the fact that VA advises aerobic slow steady runs as the basis of all his training method, but he also advises to run workouts in faster paces than simply steady-state runs.

I hope that an expert in Van Aaken as that´s "HRE" he may help us in this issue, but my final word about days off as recover independently what´s the VA prescription is that if you don´t need to take a day off, then don´t, but if you need then do it – that´s as good as physical as psychological recover – and to insist in keep the daily sessions sometimes twice a day if you are really tired that simply gets you more tired and you will get into a spiral of tiredness or no-recover at all. Of course if the need of that day off are frequent ther´s something wrong about your training schedule.

We all did read the Renato post when he says that due to travel reasons and too much hard workouts or competitions during the competitive season their runners they used to train less than we may think and they take days off frequently than one may imagine. Of course that´s not an advise for a beginner, but i also know from runners that after 4 to 6 years they aren´t able to train and compete properly due to the highly training demand with no rest days. Once again the good balance in between good train and rest that´s the key. Easy recover runs that are good. But the harder and longer you train the more rest you need this is a all rime rule. Those who want to train more/harder and less rest I guess they are in the wrong track to improvement.

Antonio, isn't Tinman also a Van Aaken advocate, and he also knows a thing or two about his methods. I hope he drops in and shares as well.

When you talk about rest days due to travel, it affects training time. Does that mean it is advisable for one who travels to work long distance should require more rest day than say 1 day a week to 10 days. Because like Norporth we are all not professional runners. The daily grind of travel can take a toll on a runners body even though it may not feel like the typical tiredness one feels with tough workouts.

Man you guys need to get a life. Just go out and run 100 miles weeks with a long run and 2 workouts or a race and one workout. Do that for a few years then get back to me. No magic formula no bullshit. Just go out and buildup to that amount and then stay at it. You will do better than messing around for your whoole life trying to find some back door to the top.

Hey badass EPO kicker, not to disagree with your ideas in training but who is looking for "back door to the top".

Lets get back on track. I would like to provide a brief overview of what we have talked about so far. This way me may more clearly be able to understand why Olbrecht’s observations are so important to consider when designing a training program.

1. High aerobic capacity is very important for all runners of every event from the 200m up to the Marathon.

2. A moderately high anaerobic capacity is important for training purposes during the base phase of training for all runners, and is especially important for shorter events.

3. Distance runners need aerobic power to be able to run at a high percentage of their VO2max (or race pace) for prolonged periods of time.

4. Middle distance runners and sprinter need anaerobic power in order to be able to withstand high levels of lactic acid (utilizing at fuel in the form of Pyvurate).

5. Anaerobic threshold workouts are aerobic power workouts. Running anywhere from 80% to 110% V02max intensity will have the effect of lowering your anaerobic capacity therefore reducing the amount of lactate produced at every speed (higher anaerobic threshold pace). This is extremely important for the marathoner and not often desired by the sprinter.

Any questions?

NO questions yet, but please continue.

[quote]Peter wrote:

Thanks, Balance. I was wondering if Olbrecht mentions about recovery on land vs. in the water. I know heart rates go down faster in the water after a swim interval. I know that swimmers seem to take shorter rests than runners do when performing interval workouts with work bouts of similar duration and intensity. Does the lactate go down faster in the water too?

I have wondered this myself. I asked a good friend of mine who is a very experienced swimmer and triathlete. He told me that the swimmers mentality was very different from the runners. Short recoveries is the way to go for swimmers. As short as 15 seconds for aerobic power workouts. He did not believe that lactate levels would be lower in the pool than by running on land. I asked him if he thought the impact forces of running require a longer recovery period. He did not know but he did tell me that he can not take as short recoveries during running workouts than during swimming workouts, even if the intensity of the exercise feels the same. He did not know if the water helped clear lactate faster, but I have a feeling it does. There can be many pounds of pressure on your muscles in water. This may help push blood back to the heart quicker, reducing venous pooling. I know I've heard that term before. JK are you listening.

The workout examples in Olbrecht's book emphasize the 15 second recovery periods for swimmers. When I spoke to him about aerobic power workouts for runners, he suggested much longer recovery periods (about a minute) for aerobic power workouts. I probably should have asked him why. I will make it a point to ask him that the next time I speak with him, not that it is a regular occurrence, because it isn’t

In perhaps a larger sense, runners train to make the most of the abilities they have been given. This desire to excel dwells within some before they ever begin to train (or often before they begin to run!) and others find that passion along the way, having been "bitten by the running bug," so to speak. Competition serves as a catalyst, raising the bar higher (metaphorically in running, literally in vertical jumps), and assists in the achievement of those personal goals. Realize that this refers to competition in fair spirit and in fair play. Cheating with drug use or other means adulterates the purpose of making the most of ability, with the goal then becoming something fleeting, such as fame, money, the physical medals, et cetera.

Of course, to reach fruition as an athlete, we must train! It has been said that "the will to win is not as important as the will to prepare to win." To take this further, the will to prepare to win is not as important or as fruitful as the will and knowledge to prepare properly.

I was a witness to extreme cases of poor pace judgment on more than one occasion. In one instance, a runner asked me to act as a rabbit to help him manage his pace during a session of 6 x 600m. He did this specifically because he always ran too fast at the beginning of his workouts and his races and he wanted to try to correct this error. On our very first 600, he sprinted ahead of me and I yelled at him to stay behind me. Despite the fact that he knew of his usual pacing mistakes, and despite the fact that he had enlisted me to serve as his rabbit to prevent those mistakes, he continued to run way too fast on the first 600, finishing over seven seconds ahead of my correct pace. His second and third bouts were slower, and he had difficulty staying with me. His fourth rep was his last. He struggled from the first 100, and by 300, he had fallen off the pace. In spite of his own awareness of his poor pace management, he still could not find the discipline to follow his own rabbit and had to abandon the workout without getting much good out of it!

It is said that Ron Clarke also needed this re-education at one point in his career. Having been introduced to easy running, then progressing to steady running at a faster pace, he was able to become fitter - and ultimately faster - than he had been previously.

Recent race performances or time trials are also good barometers for assigning target paces for workouts. These can be used in conjunction with other data (HR, etc.) and the numbers cross-checked to ensure the pace guidelines are the right ones. For race-pace work, a loud "beeping" device can be set to beep at regular intervals, and cones placed along the track (or other course) every 50m or 100m so the runners reach the cones when the beeper sounds if they are at the proper pace. This device should be placed in the center of the field as opposed to one side of the track, so as to keep the time the sound travels to each cone as consistent as possible.

Yes, use of "feel" pace management is normally done with outings which remain at or below the athlete's threshold. Most of these sessions occur during a period of general conditioning, in which specific speeds can take a back seat to acquisition of fundamental fitness. As you are probably aware, some runners have trouble staying slow enough even when no minimum pace guidelines are imposed! These aspiring athletes certainly need teaching, lest they squander their time spent running! As a period of specialized conditioning approaches (where familiarity with race pace is paramount), many methods and mechanical devises exist which can assist with pace management.

I believe the winning mark was 27:46. Bedford was all over the track that day, visibly overstriding at points, and refusing to relinquish the lead in the early and middle stages of the race. At one point, he even bolted so forcefully around another runner who had briefly taken the lead that he stumbled slightly and veered to the inside of the rail for a couple of steps. Bedford was a tough, brave runner, but his tactics in that race were atrocious.

Yes, I have also recommended that an athlete have a day off - even a scheduled day off every two weeks (or at a different interval) - and count 90 miles in six days as having the same benefit as 100+ miles in a full week. The therapeutic effect of the rest day is sometimes as beneficial for the athlete as running those extra miles.

Here is a question for you. Is it common for the fisrt 400m of a 1 mile race to be more anaerobic(higher lactate value) then laps two and three? I think this is a good topic for discusion. I'm interested in hearing your answers. This is for educatinal purposes. I would like to see us all learn something new. Hopefuly someone will get the right answer for the right reason.

ZuZu

After all i see that you agree with me and I also indeed, so “we all preach in the same choir”. Thus to keep this our side by side discussion – a bit outside of the interesting Balance posts really – let´s take a break pause that Balance may be continued – some more soft comments about your last post.

About pace strategy. Only the irrational animals they are born with “tons” of instinct. Unhappy the human beings they shall to be teach in most of the cases or they don´t learn. There are some innate talents – a Chopin knew to play music as a young boy. Bobby Fisher knew to play chess with some 4 years old – but no one tech them or they did learn by themselves ? That´s a good question. Anyhow that´s when discipline that´s a need – not tirany, or impose discipline, or dictatorship, but discipline or self discipline. How many times we saw a young runner to spoil his talent in a mile run that he does the first quarter in some 60-61sec and then he ends in agony and exhaustion in some 72seconds. But what he perceives that´s not the pace – that´s tiredness. In the end he doubts that he did a positive split run. Why? Because the perception is that he starts easily and ends hardly. Thus main pace and sustain pace shall be teach in all training zones: easy runs, aerobic runs, threshold runs, race pace runs, speed pace.

I want want to teach you how to use that in a workout, but I split the times each 100 meters with a whistle. With so the runner – or the group - since the first 100m and each new 100m when he hears the whistle sound and see in what run position he is going according that 100mts track mark/200mts/300mts/400mts – 4 parts of the quarter - he knows precisely if he is in the pace, faster or slower than the pace. U use that in short reps as well as in long reps – even for the marathon track workouts – log distances that are distance event that you need to have a quite perfect estimate event pace accuracy, just not because in long runs the pace that´s determinant but also because you are in a road run and you just have split marks each kilo or each mile.

About rest/recover days. Finnaly I agree 100% percent with you. What really matters that´s not a arithmetic mileage sum/or mileage result – weekly or ten days whatever micro cycle. What really matters that´s the average. In this case by average I mean the sum of total mileage of the active days divided by the number of days that you did have that activity. Eventually you realise now why Carlos Lopes did train less than 100 miles a week but he trains more by session unity than those that do that 100 miles weekly.

About Dave Bedford. Wait a moment… Dick Taylor was a good runner really, he also is the last big icon of Lydiard, a kind of Lydiard jewel´s crown. Of course that we need to consider that Dick´s career ended soon after that Christchurch Commonwealth Games due to a serious arthritis disease. But Bedford was a much better runner than Dick. Despite some wrong run strategies. You say that Dick did 27:46. But Bedford did 27:50 jogging and speaking side by side with the Belgian Emil Puttemans in the heats of the 1972 Munich Olympics. Now that we speak so much about Bekele, we need to remember that Dave did was the first runner in the world to win the junior and the senior events of the WCCC (at that time named International CCC) – 1969 and 1971. Dave he also were troubled by so many injuries but despite that he did 27:30.8 WR previous to Dick, at that time when the 1973 CG Bedford PBs were faster enough to put all Dick performance in his pocket. But I agree with you, that´s a good example from a poor run pace strategy - following the line that we are discussing. But...do you remember in the same 1974 Commonwealth Games who was the 1500m winner and how he did run with a first lap of some 53seconds and he not only wins as he get the 1500m WR 3.32.16. His name? Filbert Bayi from Tanzania. A performance some 1500m specialists would love to be able to run he did that 31 years ago ! with a positive split run strategy. As you see there are several roads that leads to Rome.

Zuzu's petals wrote:

As you are probably aware, some runners have trouble staying slow enough even when no minimum pace guidelines are imposed! These aspiring athletes certainly need teaching, lest they squander their time spent running! As a period of specialized conditioning approaches (where familiarity with race pace is paramount), many methods and mechanical devises exist which can assist with pace management.

Not just aspiring athletes... Antonio Leitão, portuguese 5000m bronze medal in 84 Los Angeles and 13.07.70 earlier national record for 14 years - further up, in 1988 - still a top class runner - during an easy grass run with me (some 8:00 pace) he said "I need to stop" why i ask him? "Because i´m reach the hour run, and i never in my life did more than 1 hour in a single run, everytime that i try more than 1 hour, after a few minutes my legs are hurt and i´m no able to continue". Also i coach an olympic marathon runner that when i advise him to run slower than 4:30/mile he says that afetr 10 minutes their legs are tough, and when he speed up the pace he says their legs goes are find once again.

keep it coming guys!

Will post more tomorrow. I need sleep. I am tired from doing an anaerobic power workout. Yawn...

Any one have any thoughts on the question I posted? Just curious.

You guys have very interesting posts by the way. I can't understand some of it, but I can still pick out some usefull and intersting running related stuff.

Good night. Who the hell am I talking to.

First that´s to correct one my own mistake. I´m not used to think in miles but in meters. I said ...i have a olympic marathon runner that when he runs slower than 4:30/mile...,that´s not 4:30/mile but slower than 5:30/mile pace that when he says that their legs hurt a lot and or he goes faster or he can´t stand that slow pace - slow for him of course.

My second comment is simply to say that i will post further up some more comments about this issue, but first i need to express my gratitude for Balance and the posts he did in this thread. I think that Balance goes into the right training discussion path, or to say, the bright side of physiology. Why i say so, despite that often i´m septic about physiology? Because when i read the Balance or ZuZu´s Petals posts in this same thread, their ideas and comments are similar to what i take from my coach experience training in the concrete field and their conclusions and that goes in the same direction and similar conclusions for both - the Jan Olbrech Balance´s comments and my ideas based in the training experience.

Let me say this. We may agree or we don´t in different levels of consideration with some concepts or whatever coach or whatever training method says. But if you don´t do an independent investigation you aren´t a free man and a free coach. If you are attach to some particular book, to some unique training school, to some specific method - that would be Lydiard or Renato or Tinman or Van Aaken or JK or J. Daniels or simply the 100 miles week, or VO2 or anaerobic threshold concepts - and if you look that as a undeniable truth and as a fix rule as most of the physiologists they say - you have a close mind. I guess that to be a coach with interesting ideas you may have an independent mind and to have an open mind attitude.

Thanks Antonio,

I was a bit confused by your comment about 4:30 pace per run for a marathoner. I was wondering how someone could do their long marathon training runs at that pace. I figured maybe he only did very short runs (three times per day).

I agree that even though a training philosophy may be sound, you can not expect a training schedule, workout or a particular training intensity to work for every athlete. I think the important thing is to start with a sound philosophy of training and then adjust it to the runner. I have seen runners who must jog very slowly on their recovery runs, if they don't they just break down. I have also seen many runners who need to run their regular runs fast. If they don't their legs hurt them all the time.

I believe Olbrecht's method of lactate testing to determine fitness improvements can help the coach identify what is or isn't working for the particular athlete. So, even though Olbrecht’s training observations are correct, they should not blindly be applied to everyone. Lactate testing is not imperative but it is helpful. Utilizing Olbrecht's training suggestions or any other sound training philosophy will start you on the road to success. I believe Olbrecht has a better understanding of what an athlete needs than most physiologists because he does not just try to prove theories, he makes observations from athletes doing the training. He looks at what changes have occurred over time. It is very longitudinal. He does not just put you on a treadmill and tell you run until he identifies your anaerobic threshold. What good is this? It doesn't even tell you what kind of shape you are in unless you are a marathon runner. And how can we make our way back to this current fitness level after taking time off from running. We need to know how we got there in the first place. Observing the athlete while they train over time can give you the information needed to be able to do this.

Balance

First that´s to correct one my own mistake. I´m not used to think in miles but in meters. I said ...i have a olympic marathon runner that when he runs slower than 4:30/mile...,that´s not 4:30/mile but slower than 5:30/mile pace that when he says that their legs hurt a lot and or he goes faster or he can´t stand that slow pace - slow for him of course.

Thus that´s not 4:30 but slower than 5:30. You see he is a 2:09 runner being 4th in the WC and 8th in the Olympics. Despite we read too much we need to let some margin to each runner individuality or each runner temperament or innate quality. He loves to run fast in every run - even in what would be consider easy/reciver/regenetation runs - that are not because he is no able to run that slow. he rarely trains slow that 5:30 pace that´s true never slower than 3:30/kilo, he is able to run 2h30m everyday in that pace, and he never feels tired. That´s the reason that we never shedule him LT runs, he merges that in the daily runs. the only specific workouts are reps in race pace or faster. let me say this also. The occasions he did stays in altitude - and he did that 3200mts in some occasion he never feels tired despite the pace that just 10seconds slower than at sea level. remeber that we are talking abouyt a guy that did first altitude experience with 29 years old. he lived and train all live in the sea level. he is able to train at atitude track sessions faster than race pace with no need to recover. he says that he goes to the altitude to feel strong and train fast. What i may say ? Ther´s no reason to advise him to run slow runs - if he feel find by doing what he does. But when he tries slow runs the legs are hurt and tough. Just one more example that taelents are exceptional runners out of any standard profile or steriotype or any concept. That´s what i pay lots of teention to each runner particularity - we are all diffrent, we are all an expeption somehow, a singular case, and we are all an unknow.

Apparently we have lost interest in this thread. I have been thinking about things worth mentioning myself. I think I came up with something. I will probably post here now and then if I think of something that can be of value.

I decided I would talk about the importance of periodizing your training. I am not talking about a long periodized program where you plan on only peaking once a year, although you could do it that way. You can participate in many short periodized seasons per year. It is a good idea to periodically partake in long base phases of training. This will be the most beneficial for your overall development. The best time to do this is when you are young, so that when you are older and stronger you can benefit from the high aerobic capacity you developed when you where younger.

I find it is necessary to break your training up into different periods where you can focus on improving different areas of your fitness.

The need for a base phase or aerobic conditioning phase is necessary for its optimal development. I say optimal because you can certainly improve your aerobic conditioning without a base phase, it will not be as effective though.

As I have mentioned earlier you can become over trained even if you are training at a low percentage of your VO2max. If your anaerobic capacity is low you will be supplying most of the energy needed to run aerobically. Because of this, a higher anaerobic capacity may be necessary in the base phase of training then in the precompetition phase and the competition phase of training. A higher anaerobic capacity will allow you to do more of the necessary training required to increase aerobic capacity without overtraining, and actually making it worse.

When you are about two months away from your first important competition you will want to start focusing on getting ready to race. The type of training you do will be determined by the event you run as well as the current level of anaerobic capacity.

I will use the example of a marathoner, because this can be especially true for the marathoner. A marathoner may want to lower their anaerobic capacity substantially during the precompetition phase of training. During the base phase of training they will have wanted to have an anaerobic capacity that can produce about 10-12 mmol/l of lactate in an all out 600m run. This level may be too high for a runner who wants to run a marathon at 5:40 pace per mile but their current anaerobic threshold speed is only 6:00 pace per mile. In order to lower their anaerobic capacity they will want to increase their weekly and daily volume of running. Very long runs especially play an important role in this. As mentioned earlier aerobic power workouts also decrease anaerobic capacity so you can also perform these types of workouts. The amount of long runs and aerobic power workouts you perform will be highly dependent on where you anaerobic threshold is relative to the desired marathon race pace. If your anaerobic threshold is currently at 6:00 pace and you want to be able to run a marathon at 5:40 pace you will need to increase your anaerobic threshold pace to about 5:20 pace. 5:40 pace should be slow enough and far enough below anaerobic threshold pace that the athlete will not produce to much lactate and therefore not run out of glycogen too early in the race (hit the wall or bonk). Proper pacing becomes important here.

You can estimate where the anaerobic threshold is from races and test workouts on the track, but Lactate testing would be the most accurate way to determine this.

As stated earlier, as your anaerobic capacity decreases the speed that your anaerobic threshold occurs will go up, and so will your marathon race pace.

It is important not to do too much intense training in the last month or so of marathon training. You do not want to increase your bodies ability to utilize sugar, raising aerobic capacity and therefore decreasing your anaerobic threshold speed. It is best to limit your aerobic power workouts to threshold runs in the last month or so of training. This will maintain your anaerobic threshold speed while giving you good aerobic power for the marathon. You really don't need to do more intense training than that in the last month. Aerobic threshold workouts close to 100% VO2max are very intense and can have the effect of breaking you down in stead of building you up. These types of workouts tend to require very long recovery periods. You want to get to the starting line with well rested and fresh legs, not beet up ones.

Volume of training is more important than intensity during the last month and a half of marathon training. You want to decrease your overall volume substantially during the last two weeks of course. This will ensure you're muscles are fully regenerated (fresh) and that your muscles glycogen levels are topped off (eat lots of low glycemic carbs).

[quote]balance wrote:

Apparently we have lost interest in this thread. [quote]

I hope not, this has been a good one. Maybe some of the material is over the heads of many readers (me included), but it is very informative.