I’m not totally sure, but I suspect Jakob doesn’t agree with you (or Cram) -here is what Jakob answered in 2019 when Cram pretty much said the same as now:
Jakob will only prove Cram wrong when he takes the wr. Quite apart from the speed issue I have doubts that a runner with Achilles issues can take what is one of the toughest md records in the books. It's lasted a quarter of a century.
Well, though it isn't quite an Achilles issue, Cram and Walker had compartment syndrome (in one or both calves as I recall). Cram took both 1500m and mile WRs and Walker took a mile WR.
Truth be told we dont really know his training. Despite what has been made public. Still a big secrecy surrounding their training during summer season...
Truth be told we dont really know his training. Despite what has been made public. Still a big secrecy surrounding their training during summer season...
Not really secret. It's just not been as publicized as the rest of his training. Remember the 800m reps last year?
Cram is wrong that Jakob needs more speed for the mile wr, since he was already close enough to have gotten the record with less wind and better pacers, but probably right that he needs more speed to get the 1500m wr and definitely right that he needs more speed to win championship 1500m races regularly. A middle distance runner's speed is not just a fixed quantity, as some seem to think. Training affects it fairly significantly. Gjert and Jakob have said that he just lacks speed but they don't really work hard to train his speed. Even Cram himself did not really try to work his top speed much in comparison to Coe and El Guerrouj. Cram did a lot of progressions that dropped down below 5 minute pace in the last two miles and then in his track work he would work primarily at 57 440y (I believe it was yards), which is just 3:48 mile pace (not super fast for a guy who ran 3:46.32 with a 53s close and thinks he could have run 3:44-45, and who also ran 2:12.9 and 1:42.9) on short rest of, I think, 15s per 100m run. That pace is relatively slow for elite milers. Steve Scott would often be touching on 52-54 pace, while El Guerrouj did a 10x400m at 53-54 on 45s, I think, rest. Occasionally, he would do 25-26s 200s. So, he didn't really push to develop his top speed and he might have given Coe a bit more of a run for his money in the last 100m a couple times with more speed development. Ingebrigtsen, if he spent some more time ahead of 1500m pace on the flat, would likely get that 800m time down into the 1:44s and give himself more of a gear change in the last 200m, which is where he lost to both Wightman (1:43.x) and Kerr (1:45.3). If you don't try the upper gears, you will not develop them.
The bigger issue to me, is the doubt and hate against this guy. What ELSE does he have to do to be a good runner? It's like LRC just hates this guy. He's a 3:27/3:43/4:43/7:54 guy and he wins WC's in the 5000 against 12:40-12:45 guys. It's just so confusing.
Enjoy it. All the more fun when they are wrong and devastated
congrats, that's literally Cram's point... drop the 5000's, work more on the 800's...
Why would he work on the 800m? He has won Gold Medals at 5000m and even if he focused on 800m training, he probably wouldn’t make the final at that distance. Why didn’t Cram focus on the 5000m to improve his strength?
The point is not to work on the 800 to be an 800 runner but to have more speed over the 1500.
Cram's strength over the 1500/mile was pretty good. He held both world records. Jakob doesn't.
Jakob will only prove Cram wrong when he takes the wr. Quite apart from the speed issue I have doubts that a runner with Achilles issues can take what is one of the toughest md records in the books. It's lasted a quarter of a century.
Well, though it isn't quite an Achilles issue, Cram and Walker had compartment syndrome (in one or both calves as I recall). Cram took both 1500m and mile WRs and Walker took a mile WR.
I don't know about Cram's issues but Walker's came on after his wr and the Montreal Olympics. It substantially reduced his ability to train and partly explains why he never really improved after that time. At the top, injuries are fatal.
I get that the Jakob talk is the highlight here, but I really loved that he went out to celebrate with his biggest rival on the night he broke the 1500 WR. I can't imagine Coe and Ovett ever shared a friendly drink at their peak
You're comparing runners 40 years apart. Cram had two records Jakob doesn't - and may never have.
Jakob has 2 records.
You miss the point. The discussion is about the 1500/mile. Bekele had a bunch of records Jakob doesn't have either, but didn't have the 1500/mile. For the same reason.
I get that the Jakob talk is the highlight here, but I really loved that he went out to celebrate with his biggest rival on the night he broke the 1500 WR. I can't imagine Coe and Ovett ever shared a friendly drink at their peak
He didn't break the 1500 wr; he broke the 1500 indoor record.
Cram is wrong that Jakob needs more speed for the mile wr, since he was already close enough to have gotten the record with less wind and better pacers, but probably right that he needs more speed to get the 1500m wr and definitely right that he needs more speed to win championship 1500m races regularly. A middle distance runner's speed is not just a fixed quantity, as some seem to think. Training affects it fairly significantly. Gjert and Jakob have said that he just lacks speed but they don't really work hard to train his speed. Even Cram himself did not really try to work his top speed much in comparison to Coe and El Guerrouj. Cram did a lot of progressions that dropped down below 5 minute pace in the last two miles and then in his track work he would work primarily at 57 440y (I believe it was yards), which is just 3:48 mile pace (not super fast for a guy who ran 3:46.32 with a 53s close and thinks he could have run 3:44-45, and who also ran 2:12.9 and 1:42.9) on short rest of, I think, 15s per 100m run. That pace is relatively slow for elite milers. Steve Scott would often be touching on 52-54 pace, while El Guerrouj did a 10x400m at 53-54 on 45s, I think, rest. Occasionally, he would do 25-26s 200s. So, he didn't really push to develop his top speed and he might have given Coe a bit more of a run for his money in the last 100m a couple times with more speed development. Ingebrigtsen, if he spent some more time ahead of 1500m pace on the flat, would likely get that 800m time down into the 1:44s and give himself more of a gear change in the last 200m, which is where he lost to both Wightman (1:43.x) and Kerr (1:45.3). If you don't try the upper gears, you will not develop them.
Training doesn't make a runner faster than their top speed. Lydiard knew that. He assessed a runner's suitability for an event by what they could do over 200. Snell could do 22-low, which Lydiard believed showed Snell could be fast enough over the 800 with the right training. Halberg could run 24-high, so he could never be an 800 runner but was a 1500/5k runner.
Jakob will have a limit over 200m. No amount of speed work will change that. If he isn't fast enough over that distance he won't be fast enough to beat 3:26 over the 1500. It's an equation that applies to all athletes.
This post was edited 46 seconds after it was posted.
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J I is inferior to peak Hicham el G and similar to ...
J Ingebrigtsen is inferior to peak Hicham el G and similar to Mohammed Farah.
All three men possess international 5000m gold medals.
All three men were vulnerable in international 1500m races.
All three men possess fast 1500m personal bests: 3:26, 3:27.xx & 3:28.xx.
Mohammed Farah, the smallest of the three was able to extend 1500m skills to longer events the best. Reminder. Pounding is an unmeasurable reason for distance running fatigue. Pounding adds up for big men.
Walker certainly had achilles issues - in 1976 it curtailed his training for the Montreal Olympics (not sure about 1975 - his sub-3.50 Mile WR). That is why (under Arch Jelley) he couldn't handle the Lydiard hill phase. I didn't know about the Compartment issues as well. But Cram certainly had it - but didn't get an operation? Dick Quax had it and DID get an operation, as did Mary Decker (upon Dick's advice).
HH is talking about Cram and Aouita celebrating (not JI).
If speed cannot be developed, then why do sprinters even bother training? That is a short-sighted throwaway from your NZ hero Lydiard (a marathon guy). Stop putting him on a pedestal - he was great in his element, but his understanding of physiology was limited. Something Peter Snell realized after becoming an Ex.Phys. himself - but he was too much of a gentleman to criticize Lydiard after all that he had done for him.
I get that the Jakob talk is the highlight here, but I really loved that he went out to celebrate with his biggest rival on the night he broke the 1500 WR. I can't imagine Coe and Ovett ever shared a friendly drink at their peak
Neither can I. Seb's daddy wouldn't let him for one.
I get that the Jakob talk is the highlight here, but I really loved that he went out to celebrate with his biggest rival on the night he broke the 1500 WR. I can't imagine Coe and Ovett ever shared a friendly drink at their peak
He didn't break the 1500 wr; he broke the 1500 indoor record.
You misunderstood. Cram shared in the interview that he went out and celebrated with Aouita after they first broke 3:30.
Because for the 1500m he does need more speed. Because for him to break the 1500 record he needs to be right at or just under 1.50.0 at 800m (and more like 1.49.7/8 tbh) and with his current top 800m ceiling probably in the low 1.45's, even with his awesome 3000m strength, that is just too close. He's 3 tenths a lap or 2.2m (for all 3.75) off the 1500m WR - that is still considerable.
For me, if he can get through 800 in lets say 1:50.5, as evenly as possible. He may be able to replicate his run in Silesia and run 55.2 for the third lap for 2:45.7 and then run a final 300 close to 40.3 and hopefully just under. This is assuming almost pitch perfect pacemaking to 1200m (55.25,55.25,55.2,40.3). It requires a second on the 800m which for you, may be beyond his limit but I believe just staying consistent and getting stronger than he is now can help him get this close. Obviously this is extremely hard and takes everything to get but I just think he can 🤷
Yeah the math adds up on this but I don't quite see him closing as fast as he did in Silesia (which also was a very fast close vs what we had traditionally seen from him), off almost a second faster through 1200m. And I think that's the essence of the conversation regarding his 800m speed. I mean he's stronger than El G ever was right - but he doesn't have what El G had in terms of anaerobic power which is how Hicham was able to rip off 39.66 off 2.46 low in his WR. And let's not forget that Hicham never really got the pacing right for his 1500m tilts. He ranged from too fast (Rieti in 2001 and 2002 where he was under 2.45 at 1200m) to too slow (Brussels in 01 and Rome in 98 where he was 2.46 and change) but never hit this sweet spot of an even paced 2.45.2/3 where he was capable of running in the low 40's for the final 300m.
We aren't on totally different planets in terms of agreement here. I feel though that Jakob can handle the low 2.46's and have enough to hold on for high 40 point final 300m which puts him around 3.26.7/8, that's my intuition but obviously still just an opinion.