An argument against icing injuries and using anti-inflammatory drugs

you are a 'tard

that was a great insightful comment, well worth bringing this 3 day old thread back.

And to you for prolonging further?

you come to letsrun for insight?!?read half the posts here.sorry this isn't up to your high standards or the level of "ithaca girls" or hockey trivia".i'm an idiot with nothing better to do on a saturday morning, what's your excuse for replying .......?

I am living proof that anti-inflamitories and ice can be dangerous. I developed 3rd degree frostbite burns with ulcerations on my back from using ice, apparently this is common because when you are in alot of pain, the tendency is to keeping icing it and not allow the affected area to warm up . It is the cycle of icing and heat that aids in healing. Cold restricts the blood flow and the heat after increases the blood flow. I cannot use pain medications or anti-inflamitory drugs. The anti-inflamitory drugs make me bleed internally. Have you ever read the side effects the drug companies list, stokes, internal bleeding ,

bleeding, bleeding, bleeding. These drugs are dangerous and the doctors hand them out like candy. So with all things in life , be careful and use some common sense, pain is your bodies way of saying slow down and take care of yourself. If it hurts, stop doing it.

I've been running for over 30 years and have pretty much reached the same conclusions as the original poster. I almost never ice or medicate- I use rest, aggressive massage and re-mobilization instead and experience pretty much no downtime compared to my younger years. I get up in the morning pain-free, and enjoy the full benefit of athletically-tuned living throughout the day (not to say I don't have tired days, etc.).

I find the human body to be incredibly logical, once you account for stresses, recovery, nutrition, etc,. and I find that the best defence is sensitization to the training/recovery/healing process. I find that meds and ice tend to interfere by de-sensitizing. Plus I am a wuss about cold. I tried ice baths, and just couldn't justify the torture factor. I'd much rather get into the muscles and ream out the kinks directly.

Oh yeah, and I am still in lifetime PR shape in my late 40's.

I have to say I think the original poster has a good point, even if it got lost in all the nonsense.

There *should* be evidence to support proactive medical intervention such as icing a wound or taking anti-inflammatories, because by intervening you are supposing that you can improve on a process that has been finely tuned through millions of years of evolution. Maybe you can, but it would be foolish to *assume* you can with no evidence to back it up.

I've actually search the web for some evidence, which is how I came upon this thread. I've recently fractured my 2nd metatarsal during a race, and I'm trying to decide whether to ice or not.

Unfortunately, it appears that there is no (reasonably available) evidence that icing or anti-inflammatories do any good. I would be grateful if someone could post some actual scientific evidence that they do good (i.e. not merely a theory supported by some knowledge of various biological process, but rather a study comparing actual outcomes).

Until then, I have to agree with the original poster. It seems foolish to intervene in the absence of real evidence that it improves long term prognosis (unless of course your goal is to merely get rid of the pain so you can continue with your routine, and you aren't that concerned with the long term recovery of your body to its fullest potential).

You're basically right. There is no evidence to support much of what happens in a PT office except for exercises. It's voodoo science. People may think they could not survive without this, but truth is if you mask the pain enough, you may be able to go out and run, but that doesn't mean you wouldn't be able to achieve much better results by trying to actually heal the source of the injury.

Also, the comment about manifestations vs. defensive mechanisms is a good one. However, you must take into account that, in your example, mucus is a manifestation, but if you treat the mucus, you still have not fixed the root of the problem, which is likely an infection. Thus, the only difference between the manifestation in this case and the defense mechanism is that treating both may make you feel better, but inhibiting the defense mechanism may actually make your problem worse. Treating a manifestation still doesn't help the problem, and we always want to treat the problem. Also, I'm not convinced that manifestations and defense mechanisms are all that difference in the first place. It seems to me that inhibiting the body's natural response without treating the root cause will always disrupt the body's ability to heal itself. If this is so, then the difference between manifestations and defense mechanisms is not clear at all.

I remember typing that post like it was yesterday. Crazy how fast half a decade passes, and how much your life and the world changes in that time frame. We are all gonna die :(

Hey 'juologist, just as an aside I agree with some of the things you say. But you usually seem pretty crazy and really persistent in fighting "the man," which alludes to your likely above average intelligence, but you really need to lose the immaturity because most of the threads you start end up being meaningless.

Lol I hadn't even noticed that this thread had been started in 2005. It's whatever, though.

Icing is good for soft tissue injuries because it prevents excess cell death due to inflammation. For a broken bone it is at best useless because icing won't affect blood flow to the bone at all. Unfortunately with broken bones there's nothing to do but wait it out and get proper nutrition.

I've always agreed with the original standpoint posted in this thread. I mean, inflammation is what is CURING your sprained ankle, shin splints, etc. So you're going to take an ANTI-inflammatory in order to SOLVE the problem? That is completely backwards.

I take no medicine and don't ice. And I think I have had one minor injury in 17 years of competing in track, even though I started out as a sprinter and am now a distance runner.

I have had the extreme misfortune of treating my Achilles injury along the lines proposed by Marijuologist. Thus, I have been allowing inflammation to run its course, as my injury has gotten worse and worse. Finally (after months of suffering), I started icing two days ago, and for the first time I have a sense of hope. Inflammation is a terrible, terrible thing that, left on its own, badly damages your already damaged cells. Ignore this (and listen to the pro-inflammation theory of Marijuologist) at your own risk.

Here is a cut and paste from an article from the Linus Pauling Institute. The first paragraph is background, but pay special attention to the second paragraph:

inflammation can last days, months, and even years. Chronic inflammation is primarily mediated by monocytes and long-lived macrophages; monocytes mature into macrophages once they leave the bloodstream and enter tissues. Macrophages engulf and digest microorganisms, foreign invaders, and senescent cells. Macrophages release several different chemical mediators, including IL-1, TNF-alpha, and prostaglandins, that perpetuate the pro-inflammatory response. At later stages, other cells, including lymphocytes, invade the affected tissues: T lymphocytes kill virus-infected cells and B lymphocytes produce antibodies that specifically target the invading microorganisms for destruction.

Macrophages and other leukocytes release ROS and proteases that destroy the source of inflammation; however, damage to the body's own tissues often results. In fact, tissue damage is a hallmark of chronic inflammation. Another characteristic of chronic inflammation is repair of the damaged tissue by replacement with cells of the same type or with fibrous connective tissue. An important part of the inflammatory process involves local angiogenesis—the development of new blood vessels. In some instances, the body is unable to repair tissue damage, and the inflammatory cascade continues. Chronic inflammation is abnormal and does not benefit the body; in fact, chronic inflammation is involved in a number of disease states (see below).

americans opinion wrote:

I thought for sure you had quit this board.

no, he was just using a different handle

If you you would STOP RUNNING THROUGH YOUR INJURY and let your damn tendon heal, the inflammation would go down within a few days without any ice or drugs. My position is not "pro-inflammatory," it's anti-pallation. With sports injuries it's simply inadequate to cover up the symptoms with Advil.

Have you guys ever had surgery? You need to wear compression wrap for 3 days afterward and ice several times a day for a week or so. Otherwise, the inflammation will cause irreparable damage, and you won't be any better.

Kingking wrote:

Have you guys ever had surgery? You need to wear compression wrap for 3 days afterward and ice several times a day for a week or so. Otherwise, the inflammation will cause irreparable damage, and you won't be any better.

This doesn't apply to surgery. It applies specifically to running through injuries by using pallative measures. Anythign else and you're just putting words in my mouth.

What should I do if my post tibular tendon has been inflammed for about two months. It only bothers when I touch it a certain way. I took almost two weeks off and it didn't really make much of a difference. It doesn't really bother me when I run, its just kind of un-comfortable during the day and when I rub my fingers over it.