Double threshold workouts

Try to emulate the Norweigans. Start small. Stick to LT1. Short rest. If you try to race these sessions, it can blow up in your race. At least 2 days easy before & 3 after. It could very well be your only workout for the week.

Depending on your workload, start with 800-1k repeats in the morning & 400s in the evening. You can eventually build to longer reps for both. Volume will depend on what you usually do. If you typically knock out 12-15 x 1k @ T, do something like 8-10 x 1k (10-12 x 800) @ T (1:00 rest) + 16-20 x 400 @ T (:45 rest). 400s at the same pace as the 1k repeats even though you'll want to go faster.

You mean a workout in the morning and evening? If I did that I would probably tear my adductor again. If one workout was a steady tempo it may be possible but fatigue would probably hit me the next day.

I am using now Norwegian system:

- 2 double threshold per week:

Mo: double easy + strides

Tu:

AM: 5x6min @MP -5sec/60s rest

PM: 22x400 @threshold+1km/h/30s rest

We: double easy+strides

Th:

AM: same as Tuesday

PM: 10x3min @directly laboratory threshold/60s rest

Fr: medium long run

Sat: hill sprints, 12x45s @mile pace effort (5% gradient)/90s rest

Sun: long run 2.5h, every 3rd week specific long run 2hE+30min@MP or TR

My PB:

10K -36min

I highly reccomend to buy lactate meter.

So regarding AM session you should aiming by lactate <2.5mmol (if you are fast twitch guy and your laboratory threshold closer to 4.0mmol)/ 2.2mmol (if you are slow twitch guy and your laboratory threshold closer to 3.5 mmol). Here, without lactate meter I started my first week with safe side and ran 5x6min little bit slower than your approx. marathon pace, 10s slower and within next weeks slowly increase up to MP pace, or 2-4s slower.

PM session: you should aim to <3.2mmol (for fast twitch guy with laboratory threshold closer to 4.0mmol), 2.8-3.0 mmol (for slow twitch guy with laboratory threshold closer to 3.5mmol). General rule by Marius Bakken is to stay 0.2mmol lower than laboratory threshold.

For threadmillers:

Tu:

AM: 5x6min @laboratory threshold - 1km/h

PM: 22x400 @laboratory threshold+1km/h

We:

AM: same as Tu

PM: 10x3min @directly run at laboratory threshold, if feel good and low lactate, then can run +1km/h

I have seen 2 variation of doubles from different runners:

1) AM: <2.2mmol; PM: <3.0mmol

or

2) AM: <2.5; PM: <3.2mmol

Easy runs: extremely important to run them <1.0mmol, or below 70% of HRmax!

Medium long run and long run together are tricky beast here, it is very hard to do both in the same week... I do one week with classic medium run +long run, other week medium long run break to 30min+60min but do specific long run.

Hill sprints:I started with safety and build slowly from 6x45s toward 18 within next 6 weeks.

Another tricky and paradox:

- without lactate meter you wiil be confused at day when you feel tired and heavy legs on PM session, but by lactate level will dictate that you can crank up more reps or run faster, or vise versa: you feel fresh and light, but lactate will be higher (most danger situation, where you can be very easy overtrained and cooked after few weeks suddenly) this is the hardest thing to understand and control.

My opinion, if you do not have lactate meter:

-Easy runs better to run them in range 63-68% of HRmax (it depends of fast twitch/slow twitch muscles ratio: fast twitch- on upper edge, slow twitch- on lower edge);

- Strides: do it day before the workout day and sufficient

- Minimum weekly miles: 100, between workout days run easy days not single, but doubles, it will help to recover faster

- start morning session very carefully and slower than marathon pace 5-10s, it should feel like jogging, do not push, later can build up to MP pace, otherwise you will be cooked after several weeks suddenly...

- if you do not train for marathon, cut long run, or make it no more than 2h, same for medium long run...

-sleep and eat as much as you can.

-you can start with 1 double session like one of the Ingebrigtsen brother Kristoffer, he uses 1 double session per week: 10x3min @ TR, or 5x6min @TR, something similar, check his Strava:

strava.com

Strava Runner Profile | Kristoffer Ingebrigtsen

Kristoffer Ingebrigtsen is a runner from Sandnes. Join Strava to track your activities, analyze your performance, and follow friends. Strava members can plan routes, participate in motivating challenges, and join clubs. Get s...

Link:www.strava.com/athletes/49271631

I am ordinary runner, but feel after 3 weeks of this kind of training very good and in control, so it is quite manageable to handle 2 doubles per week with my level.

I will use 6 week double thresholds as a strength block before my mara preparation, than I will move on back to classic mara preparation, but honestly, I like double system, I never could imagine, that I will be able to run 110 miles per week an doing 6 sessions, amazing...

The 400s @ T aren't actually at commonly understood "T pace." They are whatever pace is to produce the lactate threshold training effect, so probably faster. You will have to get good at estimating the effort without having a lactate meter.

Think of threshold as a state of being and not a pace. When you do that, your workout toolkit will expand greatly. Throw away the "one hour race pace" rule that only really **potentially** applies to a 20 min continuous effort or something of that nature.

If something is slower, but longer and continuous, you will eventually reach the effect you need.

If something is decently fast, but medium in length and broken up, you will also reach the effect you need.

If something is quite fast, but short in length, broken up, and with very short rest.....you of course will get the same effect you need.

That is the key to doing double threshold. Understand there are a multitude of ways to stimulate it. You just have to apply it to your ability level and the training environment you find yourself in.

Yeah I more/less agree but look at the post after mine. That's so much quality. I don't think that'll work for most people. Just don't want OP, who would be trying this for the first time, to go out and do 400s at best effort. Yes, threshold could be a touch slow. Maybe 10k is right. But 400s are short enough that you can get carried away pretty easily.

Earlier this week, I was looking at an NAU guy's Strava, and they seemed to be doing a double threshold day every other week or so. The total amount of time spent at threshold on these days was 55-60 mins, so 25-30 mins per session.

I got 2min PB at 10K race by using this kind of training and few specific weeks. So total 5 months of training only + 11months revovery from stress fracture since last PB and only 6 weeks module... amazing... definitely this system is working very well on me.

Bump

Aren't the 400 a way to run faster while still staying under or at the threshold? I think the Ingebrigtsen run them faster than the 1ks.

Trying to apply this to HS, we really don't have time to do double days unless the kids do them on their own. If we doubled our threshold during the week would we get a similar stimulus?

Why do you want to do double thresholds? I get that they are very popular the moment but it is a huge mistake to assume that they will work for everybody. Even the team at NAU has mixed results. Perhaps this is because they don’t measure lactate (which, IMO, is an absolute necessity for anybody trying this type of work). What does you current training look like? What is the volume of threshold that your currently do? If you’ve only ever done 4 miles worth of work, start with 5. Then bump to 6 after a few months.

You don’t need double thresholds to be successful. Kipchoge doesn’t do them. Bowerman has had incredible success and they do only one threshold session a week of 8-10 miles. The OAC is in the 8-9 mile range as well. Geordie Beamish did double thresholds at NAU. He was a good runner. He does less threshold volume at OAC now and he’s running much faster.
Most runners are type A and want to do more. More isn’t always better. Maybe you have a busy life and can’t recover. Maybe you do double thresholds and get injured. Take a step back. Be patient. Have a long term focus. Then assess if double thresholds are necessary for you.

Think of the training as 2 threshold sessions/week and 1 slightly faster day. The second step is doubling to get the volume up from 30-40 mins/day to 60.

For HS what would this be?

Monday 4-6*1 mile at 3200 pace +50s

Wednesday 16-20*400 at 3200+30s

Friday 12*20-30s up a hill at 1500/3000 effort

Sat 70-90 min easy run.

Obviously you need to adjust volume towards your athletes level. And the paces are just approximate. Unless you have a lactate monitor you are just going to have to go by feel. Note that we are looking at 3 days where you will be pushing 10+ miles of running. You need to build up to that.

And this only works if your kids are disciplined about pace both during this workout and the easy days. You can do the mile reps at +20s or the 400s at close to 3200m pace. But only for a couple of weeks...

LOL, Are you kidding me? Kids to be disciplined? aha 🤦‍♂️🤣, they hammer everything... double threshold for them will be way to disaster and burn out... that is why it is abdolutely no possible to use it on them...

How many disciplined adult runners tried to copy Ingebrigtsen training and f@cked up already after few weeks, check youtube... they hammer AM sessions already at LT2, or hammer easy runs in between (classic double threshold trap), even those who bought a lactate meter.... 🤣

I've watched thousand such videos and non of them did training correct and simply could not follow stupidly simple rules of this method, and after say some bullsh@t that it is too tough, it is not for sub-elite & hobby joggers... of course is not, if you like idiot hammer everything without lactate meter at low mileage including your easy days.

I am hobby jogger, but I am using this system in my training and definitely tell you, that it is easy to run 100miles with 2 double threshold, 1 hill session and even long run all in one week if you extremely disciplined with your intensities and stricly follow methodology...

How do you know Beamish did double threshold at NAU? From what I understand, this was a recent addition by Mike Smith. And considering Geordie was injury prone and running like 50 MPW + cross training, I find it hard to believe he was doing double thresholds.

Bump

They started in 2019-2020. Beamish mentioned on the coffee club pod multiple times. He said that he did a ten mile double threshold the week of Millrose in 2020.

That's why the kids have a coach.... Doubles in HS are tough outside of special circumstances (kids can run first period). Tough to be ready for the bus at 7:15 while also getting 8-9 hours of sleep when you are running for 45 mins. But again the point isn't double doubles. It is doing as much threshold work as you can get in instead of doing fast stuff. Banging out 6*800 at 5k pace is a great workout. But 5-6*1600 @ hm/mp seems like it might give better long term results. It is just too easy to cook yourself if you slightly over do the fast stuff.

And this is the type of stuff you built into over months and not just wake up and switch to it.

Bump

Does anybody experienced with innacurate lactate reading from finger? I have some troubles while taking samples from fingers, during relatively outside temperature around +15 degree celcius, my hands are always quite cold due to might be poor blood circulation🤦‍♂️. How do I suppose to take samples in order to minimize the error?:

1) use gloves?

2) maybr take from leg?

3) from ear is not possible to do so fast when you are running along and withing 60s rest.. and you need to carry a mirror too, it is very unusefull... 😏

4) some other ideas?