How come body is talking about Ndikumwenayo? Look at his ‘progression’ 5K best by year:
2022 - 12:59 (25)
2021 - 13:25 (24)
2020 - 13:26 (23)
2019 - 13:34 (22)
2018 - 13:38 (21)
2017 - 13:25 (20)
2016 - 13:26 (19)
His previous best was 7:34 in June. Prior to that, he ran a 7:41 in 2018. Anyone know if he got braces or something?
What's your point? In a single year between 2021 and 2022, Fisher went from 7:37 to 7:28 and 27:11 to 26:33. Do we raise the alarm about him too? No, we enjoy the performances for what they are until an athlete gives us a reason to believe otherwise. The same standards apply whether the athlete is American or from another country.
You are very wrong. We do in fact raise the alarm on him for those performances.
What's your point? In a single year between 2021 and 2022, Fisher went from 7:37 to 7:28 and 27:11 to 26:33. Do we raise the alarm about him too? No, we enjoy the performances for what they are until an athlete gives us a reason to believe otherwise. The same standards apply whether the athlete is American or from another country.
You kind of made my point exactly. Fisher has definitely been accused in this thread and others, but this dude with much more modest results drops the #5 performance of all time in the 3000 and no one is remarking upon it? He just stepped in the neighborhood of messrs Geb, Morceli, and Bekele. Fisher is still with Rupp, Farah, Baumann, et al
Didn't Grant Fisher graduate from Stanford with a major of engineering? I know posters want to disagree with me, G. Fisher doesn't seem obsessed about winning or earning medals. I looked at last 1000m of 2022 W.C. 5000m & 10000m. I don't recall G. Fisher ever going for it. Are you saying Grant Fisher is taking P.E.D.s to come in 3rd place in a meaningless meet in Europe so dozens of posters on this site will look up to him? I can't see Grant Fisher ruining his good name by taking P.E.D.s to run a 7:28.xx 3000m.
Well, if you assume most professional runners are on PEDs then it makes sense that he is coming in third if the playing field is even....
Ndikumwenayo is his name, I think. To help you learn these Bantu language family words, 'Ndiku" is the prefix for 'I am x'ing,' e.g. present progressive tense. In Kinyarwanda (not sure if that is his language--the name is somewhat common in a number of countries in Central Africa), it means 'I am with you."
This was a terrific performance for Grant Fisher. It is right where I predicted he would run in a fast race. Having Aregawi in there was the whole key, because Grant was very unlikely to lead himself--and so he was going to run 7:30s if the leader was in the 7:30s. Of course, Aregawi would have made it much easier if he were running an even 7:25 pace instead of insanely going after Komen's record. Then Grant would have had much better drafting. But he could have stuck his neck out there enough to get closer to Ndikumwenayo. Grant looked strong enough on the last lap that I believe his ceiling is several seconds faster still. Now he should go after 12:48-49. If he had the confidence, he would already be a medalist, so I hope these performances give him that feeling that he is good enough to contend and to go for the wins or medals, rather than coming in strong with more in the tank (he was also tripped on the last turn at world's, so that was a tough break, but had he had more confidence, he would not have been sticking to the rail at that point and he would have been closer to the lead).
Grant ran a very intelligent race. I criticized his 10K at Worlds for not being brave enough, but this was very different. The World 10K pace was slow for him, so he could easily have taken the race out earlier. Whereas as this pace was oh-my-goodness fast. I don't know Grant's splits, but my guess is that even as he ran down the field late in the race, he was slowing. He just wasn't slowing as much as the people ahead of him were.
In short, I think that 7:28 was as fast as he could have run on the day. Which is plenty fast for a guy whose best event is the 10K.
We do in fact raise the alarm on him for those performances.
I happen to be of the belief that all (or nearly all) elites take some form of PED. However, that doesn't mean you have to constantly "raise alarms!" for fast performances or refuse to enjoy them. There's no point in obsessing over something that we've known about for decades. PED use isn't new. If you refuse to acknowledge the obvious, that it's ever present in elites in running, and all sports, then that's your own fault for not being able to enjoy this, and other, sports.
Let the drug authorities do their jobs. When there's a positive test, they'll let us know. And in the meantime, enjoy your chosen sport without "raising alarms" about something well all know is as common as blue sky.
Im a big Chelimo fan and despite faster times Fisher has a ways to go to surpass his medal count in global championships, but there is no question Fisher is the best US distance runner currently. Not sure what is causing the huge dropout for Paul after Tokyo, but at his age i wouldnt be surprised if he started to transition to road HM/marathon after this season or just retire.
OK, I take it back that Grant was probably slowing at the end, since apparently he closed in 57.7. I got that one wrong. But I still like how he ran the race. I mean, it's not as if he held back, as he ran positive splits. He went for it, plenty.
4) What has Chelimo done in the 10000 and 3000? Fisher head and shoulders above in these
What in earth has Chelimo done to arouse suspicions?
Look, two things can be true at the same time:
1. Chelimo deserves a lot more respect from US distance running fans than he gets. It's not about skin colour, it's the fact that he wasn't born in the US. He'll, Rojo said as much on the pod a few weeks back.
2. Fisher is running very well and offers a lot of potential for Budapest and Paris. 3rd in a DL is a great indicator of that (btw, Chelimo won a DL, just to add to his CV).
I don't see why praising Fisher requires belittling Chelimo's achievements.
I fully agree with the points here with one minor modification. I don't care about an athlete's country of birth anymore than I care about the nationality or ethnicity of their parents. What is an extra point of pride for me, is when an athlete is produced by the US system.
Someone who ran in high school in the USA and the NCAA system is a better indication of the USA's ability to produce talent than someone who immigrated as a fully formed adult athlete. It doesn't matter to me that Meb Keflezighi was born in East Africa, because he started running in high school in the US and became an elite runner through his time at UCLA. Meb is a product of USA running.
Having said that, I'm still incredibly proud of the fact that the USA is a place where people like Chelimo and Lagat want to immigrate, obtain citizenship and represent in international competitions. It isn't like we are just buying athletes with oil money. I'm very proud to have them as Americans representing the USA. They just aren't a reflection of US system's ability to produce top talent.
What's your point? In a single year between 2021 and 2022, Fisher went from 7:37 to 7:28 and 27:11 to 26:33. Do we raise the alarm about him too? No, we enjoy the performances for what they are until an athlete gives us a reason to believe otherwise. The same standards apply whether the athlete is American or from another country.
You kind of made my point exactly. Fisher has definitely been accused in this thread and others, but this dude with much more modest results drops the #5 performance of all time in the 3000 and no one is remarking upon it? He just stepped in the neighborhood of messrs Geb, Morceli, and Bekele. Fisher is still with Rupp, Farah, Baumann, et al
Weird results happen, some people just hit a peak at the perfect moment. I'm not naïve, we could see Ndikumwenyano popped, but it could be that he's made a step up in his progress and this 7:25 forever remains an outlying performance for him. Katir did something similar with some crazy performances early last year, then he fell back but has since stepped up again and is probably showing now what his true level is - he's likely a 3:29 guy who hit a good day and once ran a 3:27. I don't think Ndikumwenyano will run 7:25 ever again, but I can see him being a consistent 7:29/30 guy. Performance jumps happen and they can be a signal of something sinister, but that shouldn't be the default assumption
We do in fact raise the alarm on him for those performances.
I happen to be of the belief that all (or nearly all) elites take some form of PED. However, that doesn't mean you have to constantly "raise alarms!" for fast performances or refuse to enjoy them. There's no point in obsessing over something that we've known about for decades. PED use isn't new. If you refuse to acknowledge the obvious, that it's ever present in elites in running, and all sports, then that's your own fault for not being able to enjoy this, and other, sports.
Let the drug authorities do their jobs. When there's a positive test, they'll let us know. And in the meantime, enjoy your chosen sport without "raising alarms" about something well all know is as common as blue sky.
If you've followed the saga of the previous IAAF head and Lance Armstrong, you'll know that you can't just let the drug authorities do their jobs. Without pressure, they won't do them. They'll suppress inconvenient results for extortion (Lamine Diack), kickbacks and avoiding crushing publicity (Armstrong), and political reasons (Russia with the IOC and Thomas Bach and others).
If fisher is clean then he is exceeding my expectations hugely. I did not foresee him becoming one of the best American runners ever and a constant threat to win big races.
If fisher is clean then he is exceeding my expectations hugely. I did not foresee him becoming one of the best American runners ever and a constant threat to win big races.
You couldn't foresee success for Grant Fisher — the guy who won 2 Foot Locker titles (one at age 16), broke 4 and did this all with soccer as his main sport until his junior year?
You kind of made my point exactly. Fisher has definitely been accused in this thread and others, but this dude with much more modest results drops the #5 performance of all time in the 3000 and no one is remarking upon it? He just stepped in the neighborhood of messrs Geb, Morceli, and Bekele. Fisher is still with Rupp, Farah, Baumann, et al
Weird results happen, some people just hit a peak at the perfect moment. I'm not naïve, we could see Ndikumwenyano popped, but it could be that he's made a step up in his progress and this 7:25 forever remains an outlying performance for him. Katir did something similar with some crazy performances early last year, then he fell back but has since stepped up again and is probably showing now what his true level is - he's likely a 3:29 guy who hit a good day and once ran a 3:27. I don't think Ndikumwenyano will run 7:25 ever again, but I can see him being a consistent 7:29/30 guy. Performance jumps happen and they can be a signal of something sinister, but that shouldn't be the default assumption
Geb, Morceli and Bekele could all have run faster than 7:25 on their best days. Watch Bekele’s 7:25.79 PB:
The pacers run 2:29.mid for the first K and are slowing (62.1 for the next lap, ~4:02 at 1600). Once the pacer drops at 1600, Bekele drops the pace to probably 57-high for the next 400 and immediately leaves the field far behind. He runs ~3:54.0 for his last 1600 (7:18.75 pace) with a 56.0 final lap. He was obviously capable of 7:21-22 that day under different circumstances.
If he’d been in the race yesterday, he either would have taken the lead approaching two laps to go and run away with it, or gathered himself for a lap as Aregawi slowed before cranking a 56 last 400, but either way he would have won big in probably the #2 fastest all time (meaning faster than 7:23.09).
*I realize I’m replying to the “nested quote” but don’t care to correct that.
