FINA Bans Lia Thomas and Trans Women Who Did not Transition Before Age 12 from Competing Against Women

seriously so relieved. It's a little funny to see the trans activists "terf! terf! terf! transphobe! transphobe! transphobe!" their way through this. They have nothing.

Don't get me wrong, transphobia DOES exist. Personally I think we should keep our noses out of other people's business, which includes medical interventions, and honor pronouns, and identity in other ways. But women's sports is such a blatant overstep and so unfair. Everyone deserves respect, bodily autonomy, and to be themselves but they can't do it at the cost of others, and transwomen unfairly competing in women's sports is at the cost of females, full stop.

There are trans women who agree with this and who feel it is unfair. Most women believe it is completely unfair for trans women to compete against them. The high profile trans women who have competed and done well against their cis competitors have shown that they are extremely arrogant, narcissistic, and deluded. Telling girls to "work harder" or claiming that they are at a disadvantage because they are taller (Cece Telfer) is insulting.

FINA's about 50 years too late.

FINA ruling should be universal for all sport. They are also the organization that banned the "carbon shoes of swimming" , swim skin suits

I'm mostly on board with this, but when it comes to casual competition I think it's fine for trans women to compete, and I want them to be included. But when it comes to large sums of money (maybe $1000+), it's unfair. Glad FINA is trying to push for some compromise, which is very necessary for this polarizing subject.

Oh, but imagine if T&F had 50 worm!

Since you've got it all figured out could you explain how a 300 lb heavyweight is going to cut weight and get to flyweight (112 lbs)? No surprise you are trying to argue that someone born a male can and should compete against women.

It is not an Olympic event, but 50m free is. And it's well known that old sprinters remain competitive in 50m long after their peak in 100m. Dara Torres won a silver in 50m at age 41. The same could happen on the men's side.

From Fina’s Science Group.

The Science Group reported that biological sex is a key determinant of athletic performance, with males outperforming females in sports (including Aquatics sports) that are primarily determined by neuromuscular, cardiovascular, and respiratory function, and anthropometrics including body and limb size. The extent of the male/female performance gap varies by sport and competition, but the gap universally emerges starting from the onset of puberty. The group reported that there are sex-linked biological differences in Aquatics, especially among elite athletes, that are largely the result of the substantially higher levels of testosterone to which males are exposed from puberty onwards. Prior to puberty, testosterone levels are similar in females and males. During puberty, however, testes-derived testosterone concentrations increase 20-fold in males, while testosterone concentrations remain low in females so that post-pubescent males have circulating testosterone concentrations at least 15 times higher than post-pubescent females (15-20 nmol/L in adult males versus c.1 nmol/L in typical females of any age). High testosterone levels generate not only anatomical divergence in the reproductive system but also measurably different body types/compositions between sexes.

According to the Science Group, if gender-affirming male-to-female transition consistent with the medical standard of care is initiated after the onset of puberty, it will blunt some, but not all, of the effects of testosterone on body structure, muscle function, and other determinants of performance, but there will be persistent legacy effects that will give male-to-female transgender athletes (transgender women) a relative performance advantage over biological females. A biological female athlete cannot overcome that advantage through training or nutrition. Nor can they take additional testosterone to obtain the same advantage, because testosterone is a prohibited substance under the World Anti-Doping Code.

So..How is Tanner Stage 2 accurately determined if puberty in males can begin anywhere from 9-13 years old? If males from 9-11 years old show Tanner Stage 2 and are not accurately diagnosed as beginning puberty, then the “legacy effects...will give male-to-female transgender athletes (transgender women) a relative performance advantage over biological females...”

in this paragraph, FINA should have added that member federations representing countries where there's no freely available transitioning before the age of 12 will be banned from FINA events due to government policy interference with FINA matters...FINA often ban members whose swimming federation business is influenced by government interference...this is the bit where FINA loses its case in court

Athletes with PAIS are still allowed to compete if they maintain their t-level below 2.5 nmol/L. So what happens to those who discover their PAIS after their 12th birthday? Here is what the FINA policy says.

"An unintentional deviation from the below 2.5 nmol/L requirement may result in retrospective disqualification of results and/or a prospective period of ineligibility."

So if I were a lawyer representing an athlete, I would make an argument that my client's failure to comply with the t-level requirement after her 12th birthday was "unintentional." Either she didn't know she had PAIS, or her parents didn't allow her to take hormone replacement therapy, or her doctor / parents did not keep the record because they did not think she would be an elite athlete. Either way, my client did not have control over her situation, and therefore her non-compliance was unintentional.

If kids under 12 (or their parents) are more concerned about their chances to compete in an easier division in the Olympics than everything else in their life, then there are bigger problems than FINA's efforts here...

I feel like this is a reasonable (though hard to enforce) solution to the issue.

I disagree. They can compete in the men's category, or local races can also create an "open" category. My 2nd place podium spot in a Turkey trot means just as much to me, as it does to them. Why is their chance to win a podium spot more important than mine?

This means to ensure their continued participation, all girls involved in swimming will need to be genetically tested at 12 years old to check they do NOT have an androgen syndrome, because finding out later means you will not have a full record your T levels did not exceed 2.5 nmol/L during puberty.

This could affect anyone and anyone's daughter. Don't assume you would know, as especially before puberty, there could be no indicators. Be prepared.

There will be countless women athletes caught in this and will need to seek legal help to navigate FINA's new rules. A burden not placed on the men's sport.

Well, read the policy more carefully. It says unintentional deviation "MAY result in retrospective disqualification of results and/or a prospective PERIOD of ineligibility."

Those are the two keywords. A "period" of ineligibility means it's not a permanent ban. And the length of that period could vary. And it also says" may result in ineligibility, meaning it may NOT result in ineligibility depending on the circumstances. As I wrote above, I think I would have a very good case at CAS if I were representing a minor athlete.

Here is someone who thought her daughter had CAIS until she was 12. Then she discovered that her daughter actually had 5-ARD.

Well lookee here! It's the "Concern Troll"! He's just so concerned about all this...

I think money also had a big impact on why FINA took this situation so seriously. Swimming is an expensive sport and when people with money are more vocal, your issues tend to get addressed. I think it will be harder to see this kind of ruling in sports with lower economic barriers to entry.