CU's Training Has Changed A Lot

Runner10287 wrote:

I work at a big university so I’m well aware that many internationals are very well off. Some of the cats they drive.

However if a school isn’t recruiting foreign athletes unless they will be big contributors. Regardless of families finances if they are good enough to warrant a scholarship most will get as much as they can,

Yes, most! XC/t&f is not football. Scholarships and top tier runners are hard to stockpile unless you are an Oregon or Stanford where several walk on. So, to turn your back on a potential athlete, foreign or not, that can/will pay their own way, why would you? Many programs either do not have the time/resources to look for these potential developmental athletes. They could be missing a great advantage. I am curious if there are some corners being cut that should not be due to a perception of foreign student-athletes. Also, many schools get a pipeline going. X athlete from Y country goes home and touts their university to their friends and relatives spreading the good word until the next prospective athlete goes looking.

Roster size limits need to be considered as well. Only so many spots for developmental types. Back in the day you could welcome a lot of in state runners who were coming to school either way. Train them hard and see who improves.

Runner10287 wrote:

Roster size limits need to be considered as well. Only so many spots for developmental types. Back in the day you could welcome a lot of in state runners who were coming to school either way. Train them hard and see who improves.

Excellent point and something I glossed over.

Is this a concern at CU?

Opinionated guy wrote:

Runner10287 wrote:

Roster size limits need to be considered as well. Only so many spots for developmental types. Back in the day you could welcome a lot of in state runners who were coming to school either way. Train them hard and see who improves.

Excellent point and something I glossed over.

Is this a concern at CU?

It's a concern at every school. If CU can recruit all sub 910 3200m guys, why would they take a chance with a 930 guy that's only run 25 mpw in HS?

The 930 guy has a lot of room for improvement, or you can get guys that already faster and more of a sure thing. The 930 guy could develop into a 133p 5k in college, but it's a numbers game. You take the faster recruits. Their program has developed enough that they can take the faster recruits.

And as an aside, sometimes CU has turned down major recruits because they weren't a good fit. Like when they turned down Brie Oakley and Katie Rainsberger. Katie didn't fit the team culture. Brie had a very short stride which made it clear she'd peak in HS, which she did.

NAU get more talent then CU

Times are relative. To use a boxing analogy pound for pound Sugar Ray Robinson is the alltime best. In the 1500 hundred it is Herb Elliot. All things being equal Goucher is a 13.02 guy. Bob Schul is a 12.50 guy. Open up your mind. If u a elite in your era u would be elite in any era. Can't we just appreciate great efforts?

Tussey Mt wrote:

Times are relative. To use a boxing analogy pound for pound Sugar Ray Robinson is the alltime best. In the 1500 hundred it is Herb Elliot. All things being equal Goucher is a 13.02 guy. Bob Schul is a 12.50 guy. Open up your mind. If u a elite in your era u would be elite in any era. Can't we just appreciate great efforts?

No, Adam Goucher wouldn't make the NCAA final in todays NCAA.

shootpost wrote:

Tussey Mt wrote:

Times are relative. To use a boxing analogy pound for pound Sugar Ray Robinson is the alltime best. In the 1500 hundred it is Herb Elliot. All things being equal Goucher is a 13.02 guy. Bob Schul is a 12.50 guy. Open up your mind. If u a elite in your era u would be elite in any era. Can't we just appreciate great efforts?

No, Adam Goucher wouldn't make the NCAA final in todays NCAA.

That is an asinine comment. Goucher ran 3:54/ 13:11 in 1999 less than a year after he won NCAA xc.

If you threw 1998 Goucher into a 2021 NCAA 5k regional he would qualify for Nationals and almost certainly score.

attic dweller wrote:

shootpost wrote:

No, Adam Goucher wouldn't make the NCAA final in todays NCAA.

That is an asinine comment. Goucher ran 3:54/ 13:11 in 1999 less than a year after he won NCAA xc.

If you threw 1998 Goucher into a 2021 NCAA 5k regional he would qualify for Nationals and almost certainly score.

Yeah but it’s 2021, Goucher is pretty old and hasn’t ran pro for a while

I had the sense that their recruiting suffered after one top California recruit with an incredible Mt. Sac performance didn't like the program atmosphere and left loudly a few years back.

Runner10287 wrote:

Luv2Run wrote:

Athletic departments do not get the majority of their funding from taxpayers. Tuition for a foreign student is insanely high so the university makes money when one is signed.

Most international student-athletes are probably on a full or close to full scholarship

Yes and that means a transfer of funds from the athletic department to the university. I have to admit that I thought the difference was far greater in tuition for international students relative to out of state. I had read a while back when schools were cutting sports that international students were paying a premium. Maybe CU just has not gone that route.

At CU Boulder in state tuition for arts and sciences is $5346 (12 credits or more).

Out of state is $18,273

International is $19,168 (regardless of whether they are taking 1 or 18 credits)

attic dweller wrote:

shootpost wrote:

No, Adam Goucher wouldn't make the NCAA final in todays NCAA.

That is an asinine comment. Goucher ran 3:54/ 13:11 in 1999 less than a year after he won NCAA xc.

If you threw 1998 Goucher into a 2021 NCAA 5k regional he would qualify for Nationals and almost certainly score.

Joe Klecker ran 13:06/27:23 a year after graduating, and never won a national title if you want to play that game.

Goucher was a 13:31 college runner.

The point stands firmly- the Colorado of today is much better than the Colorado of 1998. To think they need to get back to the training of RWTB is dumb.

xczvzxcv wrote:

I had the sense that their recruiting suffered after one top California recruit with an incredible Mt. Sac performance didn't like the program atmosphere and left loudly a few years back.

Who?

After that first job and with each successive job, where you went to school at least with a range of schools matters less and less. Yes Harvard will open doors that CU will not but I am not so sure CU opens that many more doors within the same degree as NAU.

CU training of any era I know about is NOTHING like any California high school training I've seen.

And I'm very aware of both.

I suspect Katie's mom did not fit the culture.

Luv2Run wrote:

robert678 wrote:

It's a concern at every school. If CU can recruit all sub 910 3200m guys, why would they take a chance with a 930 guy that's only run 25 mpw in HS?

The 930 guy has a lot of room for improvement, or you can get guys that already faster and more of a sure thing. The 930 guy could develop into a 133p 5k in college, but it's a numbers game. You take the faster recruits. Their program has developed enough that they can take the faster recruits.

And as an aside, sometimes CU has turned down major recruits because they weren't a good fit. Like when they turned down Brie Oakley and Katie Rainsberger. Katie didn't fit the team culture. Brie had a very short stride which made it clear she'd peak in HS, which she did.

I suspect Katie's mom did not fit the culture.

Oh is that what happened? I remember hearing something to the effect that Katie was very self absorbed asking what they could do for her instead of what she could do for them. Did I hear incorrectly?

You think Klecker would have beaten Goucher in a 5K on the track or at NCAA Cross? You do realize that Meb/Lagat/Abdi were contemporaries of Goucher? Goucher beat Lagat in the NCAA Indoor 3K.

shootpost wrote:

attic dweller wrote:

That is an asinine comment. Goucher ran 3:54/ 13:11 in 1999 less than a year after he won NCAA xc.

If you threw 1998 Goucher into a 2021 NCAA 5k regional he would qualify for Nationals and almost certainly score.

Joe Klecker ran 13:06/27:23 a year after graduating, and never won a national title if you want to play that game.

Goucher was a 13:31 college runner.

The point stands firmly- the Colorado of today is much better than the Colorado of 1998. To think they need to get back to the training of RWTB is dumb.

Your original stated "point" was that Goucher wouldn't make the NCAA final today. That statement was ridiculous to begin with.

It only took 13:57 to guarantee making it out of the West regional in 2021 and Goucher had a respectable long kick so it's ludicrous to think a very tough minded 13:31 runner wouldn't make it to Nationals.

In my reply I brought up Goucher's immediate PR improvement post college to show that a collegiate Goucher could have hung in with the 2021 NCAA 5k field. I didn't say that he would win but that I thought he would score.

I don't know what Klecker has to do with any of this but he got 7th in the outdoor 5k in 2017 when his PR was 13:4x then had injuries and Covid mess up his remaining track seasons.

I agree that nearly every top flight NCAA distance program is objectively faster in 2021 than it was in 1998. The tracks, shoes, schedule, and meet management are all much more conducive to fast times now.

The training is also better now almost across the board. Still, the best collegiate runners of the 90s would do just fine in today's NCAA if you gave them Dragonflys and race setups tailored to fast times.