I’d like to hear what Katelyn and her teammates have to say on this issue. Honestly, please ask her and tell us. My daughter is no Katelyn when it comes to talent, but she’s a hs xc state champion and a serious competitor. She tells me she could not care less if she lost to a trans athlete, and she would have boycotted if trans athletes were excluded from her races or forced to run with the boy’s. What would Katelyn say and do?
All Humans make a lot of mistakes. We are only several decades removed from slavery, world War, no basic human rights or women's rights. Today we have progressed regarding those topics but there are other topics where humanity is struggling to get it right. This topic of transgenderism is obviously one of them. People in power such as Biden generally don't have a comprehensive understanding of the subject so they act emotionally just like the idiot SJWs would do. This is very dangerous and you get things such as bio men competing against and oppressing bio women and ignorant Biden saying it is fair. Ah, the limitations and faults of humanity. No use losing sleep over it, life aint fair and never has been in general for generations of inhabitants on this planet.
CrispyChicken wrote:
I don't think people labeled as "transphobic" are actually afraid of transgender people. I think they have personal moral, religious, scientific, and/or political/policy beliefs that are different from those held by transgender people and those who support transgender people. In particular, I believe there are differences of opinion with respect to athletic competition that have nothing to do with fear. Just because a person doesn't approve of something doesn't mean they fear it. The use of the suffix "phobic" is a cheap and intellectually weak political ploy used to devalue or dismiss the opinions of those who disagree with you.
What if CrispyChicken insists that he is a chicken? Must we allow him to make clucking noises in public libraries? Will those opposed to this permission be called "trans-species-phobic?"
Wise Old Man wrote:
I’d like to hear what Katelyn and her teammates have to say on this issue. Honestly, please ask her and tell us. My daughter is no Katelyn when it comes to talent, but she’s a hs xc state champion and a serious competitor. She tells me she could not care less if she lost to a trans athlete, and she would have boycotted if trans athletes were excluded from her races or forced to run with the boy’s. What would Katelyn say and do?
Your daughter may not care but others might. It isn't a matter to be decided by a subjective response but on the facts, that biological males have an advantage, and sporting principles, that women's sport is protected to ensure fairness.
Armstronglivs wrote:
Wise Old Man wrote:
I’d like to hear what Katelyn and her teammates have to say on this issue. Honestly, please ask her and tell us. My daughter is no Katelyn when it comes to talent, but she’s a hs xc state champion and a serious competitor. She tells me she could not care less if she lost to a trans athlete, and she would have boycotted if trans athletes were excluded from her races or forced to run with the boy’s. What would Katelyn say and do?
Your daughter may not care but others might. It isn't a matter to be decided by a subjective response but on the facts, that biological males have an advantage, and sporting principles, that women's sport is protected to ensure fairness.
What if no young woman cared? Seems like a lot more men care about this “problem” than the biological women they seek to protect. My impressions are subjective in that I can’t speak to every young biological girl running hs track, but I’ve spoken to dozens, and they don’t care, or in fact, they do care, and think all of the men passing these laws are getting it wrong.
Eugene Bound wrote:
Agreed, Letsrun as a whole and most posters are transphobic. Trans individuals are not "mentally ill", they should have every right to compete against the gender they identify with as long as they meet specified criteria.
I don't think most posters actually know how hard it is to be allowed to compete at the NCAA or professional level as a trans athlete. This is not "men just jumping into a women's race", these people take hormone treatments, etc. and across the board have a decrease in athletic performance - in almost all cases to about what their equivalent performances are before treatment.
Do hormonal treatments reduce a height advantage? Do hormone treatments reduce a weight advantage? Do you think it is healthy for someone with zero apparent physiological problems (apart, perhaps, from those involved with their thinking) to take hormone suppressors or opposite-sex hormones? It sounds terribly unhealthy to me. Why do you think trans-ideation is not a mental illness? It is far, far, far easier to believe in the mental illness of those with trans-ideation than to believe that they were born "into the wrong body."
Maybe you are society-phobic.
Armstronglivs wrote:
Wise Old Man wrote:
I’d like to hear what Katelyn and her teammates have to say on this issue. Honestly, please ask her and tell us. My daughter is no Katelyn when it comes to talent, but she’s a hs xc state champion and a serious competitor. She tells me she could not care less if she lost to a trans athlete, and she would have boycotted if trans athletes were excluded from her races or forced to run with the boy’s. What would Katelyn say and do?
Your daughter may not care but others might. It isn't a matter to be decided by a subjective response but on the facts, that biological males have an advantage, and sporting principles, that women's sport is protected to ensure fairness.
I’ll just close by saying there are all sorts of biological differences that we concede are just part of the fair differences between competitors. The rules of sport are not based on biology, they are based on what we collectively feel is fair or not, including the rules around participation. In hs track, I think it’s a no brainer that inclusion in this regard is far more beneficial than what might be lost in competitive fairness. Maybe in the Olympics the balance between inclusion and competitive balance needs to be struck in a different way. Don’t make it out that the rules are absolute, rigidly determined by biology. It’s up to all of us to assess the risks and benefits of any given rule. The argument being made is that excluding trans women from hs women’s sports is best for biological women. Guess what, I don’t think most of them agree, definitely not in my neck of the woods.
Wise Old Man wrote:
I’ll just close by saying there are all sorts of biological differences that we concede are just part of the fair differences between competitors. The rules of sport are not based on biology, they are based on what we collectively feel is fair or not,
Ever heard of the ABP? Or the fundamental rule called anti-doping that you can't change your biology through artificial means?
The division between mens and womens competition is based on biology.
Wise Old Man wrote:
Armstronglivs wrote:
Your daughter may not care but others might. It isn't a matter to be decided by a subjective response but on the facts, that biological males have an advantage, and sporting principles, that women's sport is protected to ensure fairness.
What if no young woman cared? Seems like a lot more men care about this “problem” than the biological women they seek to protect. My impressions are subjective in that I can’t speak to every young biological girl running hs track, but I’ve spoken to dozens, and they don’t care, or in fact, they do care, and think all of the men passing these laws are getting it wrong.
You could say that about a lot (or nearly all) of feminist issues. For example, the women who work in the sex industry are usually young, and the feminists who want the sex industry closed down to 'protect' the sex workers from explotation are usually older women. But society assumes that the feminists can speak for younger women. And of course many male feminists speak for them too and countless other issues. I've seen you white Knight for young women here many times.
A lot of leading past and present sportswomen have spoken out againat trans athletes in women's sport, and they get subjected to vicious online abuse, death threats and cancellations. From biological males who claim to be women. Curious that male feminists seem happy about that.
Perhaps you have talked to lots of young girls who give you the impression that they don't care, but perhaps like most liberals you ignore the fact that they might simply be afraid of getting cancelled or other repercussions, or are simply engaging in the group think that's been rammed down their throats since birth.
Armstronglivs wrote:
Your daughter may not care but others might. It isn't a matter to be decided by a subjective response but on the facts, that biological males have an advantage, and sporting principles, that women's sport is protected to ensure fairness.
The first smart take you've ever had.
just eliminate the men's division, replace it with Open, and make the women's division for biologically born females.
everyone else is in Open.
man that thinks he's a man- open
man that thinks he's a woman- open
a woman that thinks she's a man- open
athletics are an issue and it isn't fair to the young women that really work hard to achieve something in the sport. where this gets real is when these dudes are put into women's jails and prisons.. they are going to beat the livin' hell outta those women.
Ye2coachOrNot2coach wrote:
just eliminate the men's division, replace it with Open, and make the women's division for biologically born females.
everyone else is in Open.
man that thinks he's a man- open
man that thinks he's a woman- open
a woman that thinks she's a man- open
athletics are an issue and it isn't fair to the young women that really work hard to achieve something in the sport. where this gets real is when these dudes are put into women's jails and prisons.. they are going to beat the livin' hell outta those women.
That solution is not going to placate that trans community. They want transgender women to be considered the same as biological women in all facets of life- full stop.
Really, the simplest solution to just cut this Gordian Knot of transgender absurdity would be to get rid of gender in all sports. Combine men’s and women’s NCAA and professional sports and the best overall athletes, regardless of gender will rise to the top.
Biological women get the raw end of this deal but they would be getting the raw end of the deal as more and more transgender women enter their sports. My solution doesn’t offend anyone (which seems like the “end all be all” goal in 2021).
Sham 69 wrote:
Armstronglivs wrote:
Your daughter may not care but others might. It isn't a matter to be decided by a subjective response but on the facts, that biological males have an advantage, and sporting principles, that women's sport is protected to ensure fairness.
The first smart take you've ever had.
It isn't, but it might be a first for you.
Wise Old Man wrote:
Armstronglivs wrote:
Your daughter may not care but others might. It isn't a matter to be decided by a subjective response but on the facts, that biological males have an advantage, and sporting principles, that women's sport is protected to ensure fairness.
What if no young woman cared? Seems like a lot more men care about this “problem” than the biological women they seek to protect. My impressions are subjective in that I can’t speak to every young biological girl running hs track, but I’ve spoken to dozens, and they don’t care, or in fact, they do care, and think all of the men passing these laws are getting it wrong.
The short answer to your question, "what if no young women care about transgender inclusion in their sport?", is that there would cease to be any rationale for having women's sport as a protected category. It would simply be subsumed into an open category where males and females compete together. That would certainly spell the end of women's sport.
But a group of top women's athletes think otherwise, and they have formed a policy group to seek solutions.
https://womenssportspolicy.org/the-issue/'Law and sports policy makers understood that from the onset of male puberty, male bodies develop such that they are, as a group, faster, stronger, and more powerful than female bodies as a group. The performance gap between male and female athletes that emerges from that point typically ranges from 8-20% depending on the sport and event, and “up to 50% where explosive power and complex movement skills are pivotal." If sports were not sex-segregated, female athletes would rarely be seen in finals or on victory podiums.'
Raddissonnn wrote:
You could say that about a lot (or nearly all) of feminist issues. For example, the women who work in the sex industry are usually young, and the feminists who want the sex industry closed down to 'protect' the sex workers from explotation are usually older women. But society assumes that the feminists can speak for younger women. And of course many male feminists speak for them too and countless other issues. I've seen you white Knight for young women here many times.
A lot of older feminists want to close the sex industry but lots of younger feminists just want the women involved to be safe.
Feminism used to be very middle class and the women involved just wanted to have equality with their husbands. Even if that equality meant the ability to oppress others - working class women, sex workers, black women and trans people.
Raddissonnn wrote:
Wise Old Man wrote:
What if no young woman cared? Seems like a lot more men care about this “problem” than the biological women they seek to protect. My impressions are subjective in that I can’t speak to every young biological girl running hs track, but I’ve spoken to dozens, and they don’t care, or in fact, they do care, and think all of the men passing these laws are getting it wrong.
You could say that about a lot (or nearly all) of feminist issues. For example, the women who work in the sex industry are usually young, and the feminists who want the sex industry closed down to 'protect' the sex workers from explotation are usually older women. But society assumes that the feminists can speak for younger women. And of course many male feminists speak for them too and countless other issues. I've seen you white Knight for young women here many times.
A lot of leading past and present sportswomen have spoken out againat trans athletes in women's sport, and they get subjected to vicious online abuse, death threats and cancellations. From biological males who claim to be women. Curious that male feminists seem happy about that.
Perhaps you have talked to lots of young girls who give you the impression that they don't care, but perhaps like most liberals you ignore the fact that they might simply be afraid of getting cancelled or other repercussions, or are simply engaging in the group think that's been rammed down their throats since birth.
What is this fetish you have with impersonating (badly) Radisson and spade detector, Coevett?
You are a grown man but you behave like a teenager sometimes.
You are mostly right in this post though.
And many girls, at least in the US, are afraid of voicing their true opinions in a society where it's so easy to have your words distorted on social media.
Armstronglivs wrote:
Wise Old Man wrote:
What if no young woman cared? Seems like a lot more men care about this “problem” than the biological women they seek to protect. My impressions are subjective in that I can’t speak to every young biological girl running hs track, but I’ve spoken to dozens, and they don’t care, or in fact, they do care, and think all of the men passing these laws are getting it wrong.
The short answer to your question, "what if no young women care about transgender inclusion in their sport?", is that there would cease to be any rationale for having women's sport as a protected category. It would simply be subsumed into an open category where males and females compete together. That would certainly spell the end of women's sport.
But a group of top women's athletes think otherwise, and they have formed a policy group to seek solutions.
https://womenssportspolicy.org/the-issue/'Law and sports policy makers understood that from the onset of male puberty, male bodies develop such that they are, as a group, faster, stronger, and more powerful than female bodies as a group. The performance gap between male and female athletes that emerges from that point typically ranges from 8-20% depending on the sport and event, and “up to 50% where explosive power and complex movement skills are pivotal." If sports were not sex-segregated, female athletes would rarely be seen in finals or on victory podiums.'
It's laughable that you think that trans participation is a threat to women's sports. It is not happening now and it's not going to happen. In CA participation is based solely on declared gender and we are seeing no tidal wave of trans athletes dominating races and taking away finals and podiums from biological women. Over the past ten years of my involvement I can't think if a single example. You are all making a "slippery slope" argument of the worst kind, one that causes real injury while "protecting" women who don't need it and don't want it. I am not sure who thinks the young women of CA cannot speak their minds because they are afraid of being cancelled, but again, I can assure you that the many I have spoken to on this subject are not afraid of cancellation, they are speaking their minds and are nearly uniform in their opposition to these restrictions. Finally, we don't test for doping in youth and hs sports. In elite competition it might be reasonable to have participation rules based on sex and not gender, but for the vast majority of sports across the country, this movement to exclude athletes from participating in the gender class to which they identify is bad policy and unenforceable.
Sham 69 wrote:
Armstronglivs wrote:
Your daughter may not care but others might. It isn't a matter to be decided by a subjective response but on the facts, that biological males have an advantage, and sporting principles, that women's sport is protected to ensure fairness.
The first smart take you've ever had.
Amazing eh? A dem leaning right on an issue. Im a dem who leans right on many issues, including this one. Most dems aren't crazy leftists. Wish more of you Republicans would get that.
Amen brother. I've noticed the rampant transphobia on these boards for some time, and I've seen that the admins tend to agree with these views. Nevertheless, I was extremely disappointed to see them openly framing the inclusion of trans women as "failing women's sports."
Be inclusive people. People's identities are valid.
ohyeahohyeahohyeah wrote:
Amen brother. I've noticed the rampant transphobia on these boards for some time, and I've seen that the admins tend to agree with these views. Nevertheless, I was extremely disappointed to see them openly framing the inclusion of trans women as "failing women's sports."
Be inclusive people. People's identities are valid.
@OP
BREAKING: Leonard Korir not going to Paris! 11 Universality athletes get in ahead of him!
Hicham El Guerrouj is back baby! Runs Community Mile in Oxford
What is the most stupid running advice you've ever heard?🤣(It can be funny)
Are Asics, Saucony, and New Balance envious of Brooks, Hoka ,and On?
What is the threshold that separates a "hobbyjogger" from a "sub-elite" runner?