El Guerrouj 2k WR - Incredible 3:49 Mile pace

rekrunner wrote:

Armstronglivs wrote:

Performance enhancement is neither "necessary nor sufficient" to ban a substance? So WADA is only a public health body, not an anti-cheating fairness in sport enforcer - and I wonder just what do those apparently empty words "against the spirit of sport" mean? A chivalric code?

Of course WADA doesn't care about doping. You don't. As far as you're concerned, doping doesn't enhance performance. Not for your elite African distance runners - who nevertheless dope like crazy.

If you take your cue from Arogant then you are also receptive to an argument based on a false premise, that athletes will be willing to dope even if the odds are low that it will help them. The odds aren't low and there is no evidence they are.

I'm not surprised you wonder at the meaning of words.

WADA's mission, and the meaning of "sport of the sport" can also be found at WADA's website.

I take my cues directly from firsthand sources like WADA's website, and historical facts, such as all-time performances.

Aragon wrote:

Armstronglivs wrote:

If you take your cue from Arogant then you are also receptive to an argument based on a false premise, that athletes will be willing  to dope even if the odds are low that it will help them. The odds aren't low and there is no evidence they are.

I see no reason to comment on your clairvoyant-like capabilities to mind-read the thought process of athletes, but one major noticeable flaw in all of your reasoning is that you treat "athletes" and "doping" as monoliths.

There is almost an infinite amount of athletes with different combinations of training status, natural performance limits, financial resources, risk tolerance, goals, level of desperation, years of active career remaining, alternative career options etc, and therefore also different approaches to what methods with what odds are worthwhile to use.

There is equally no unifom "doping", but a variety of doping methods to enhance (potentially) performance of which some have more and some less predictable outcomes, and even different e.g. endurance athletes have some variance on whether to dope at all or what they use (clearly there are some methods considered almost uniformally likely beneficial). Doping isn't even a totally unique and isolated category in performance enhancement, therefore - by your logic - any idiot who consumes regularly some fancy $400/pound amino acid-derivate is excepting nearly certain benefits.

That having been written, I'll take the "nolo contendere"-approach to your comments from this point onward. Any sane person would've done so when you bragged about your nonexistent "WADA contacts" when simultaneously didn't know anything about the three criteria. You apparently still do believe that if WADA had found altitude training even remotely as beneficial as EPO, they would've found it against "the sports spirit" and banned it.

Not only have you also no ability to abstract reasoning when you dismiss a valid question as "irrelevant", but I seriously doubt whether you even know the meaning of terms "game theory" and "straw-man". Speculating what happened to Leisure Suit Larry 4 is your idea about what the mathematical branch of game theory is interested in solving.

In any case, giving you any rationale to continue your "you aren't up to science... how slow are you.... Champ... Arogant"-type IQ of 47-quality whining feels like giving you more rope to hang yourself at this point.

rekrunner wrote:

Aragon wrote:

Any sane person would've done so when you bragged about your nonexistent "WADA contacts" when simultaneously didn't know anything about the three criteria.

You are much wiser than I am.

For those who can only think in unrelated analogies, I thought of an analogy to illustrate WADA's process of evaluating three criteria, that perhaps an 8th grade science or art student would be able comprehend, to show that the determination process is not BLACK and WHITE.

We can imagine the three criteria as the primary colors, RED, YELLOW and BLUE.

WADA doesn't ban primary colors RED, YELLOW and BLUE, but bans secondary colors ORANGE, GREEN, and PURPLE.

Sometimes determining the existence of primary colors is not obvious.

Rather than accepting the burden of proving a color, some substances are are included if they are determined that they could potentially could contain a primary color.

A banned list is not sorted by color.

Therefore, it is not possible to conclude from the WADA banned list of potentially ORANGE, GREEN and PURPLE substances, which substances are truly RED.

High-Octane Dopers wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

Again, what you think about what I think is incorrect.

Some events are more competitive and have more world record attempts.

Some world records last longer because world record attempts are rare.

Kiptum and Boulami did not dominate their events like the other all time greats dominated more competitive events.

Doping violations are a big deal, regardless of event. Referring to an event as weak is a reflection of the best times of an event with few world record attempts, but it doesn't make doping violations a smaller deal.

I have no idea what you're talking about - you've become too enigmatic for me to understand half of what you say anymore (do you do this on purpose to confuse & puzzle people? I have no trouble comprehending the articulate posts from the likes of Armstronglivs, casual observer, TC, etc - but you, it's like some kind of riddle I have to decipher. Lol.).

Boulimi did dominate the SC up to the time of his ban. His WR time from 2002, though annulled, still stands as the faster ever! There's been plenty of athletes particularly Kenyans that have contested this event over a time period of almost 20 yrs and none of these talented athletes have beaten Boulami's time. He also holds 4 of the fastest times in the top 25 including 1st & 4th! I think you just don't want to admit that EPO had a role in that WR performance.

Kiptum's WR time shouldn't be seen as chump change just because you think the HM is some secondary event that less talented athletes contest. A lot of top marathoners have contested a HM or two in their careers. And Kiptum holds the 26th fastest marathoner of all time - impressive since the marathon is probably the signature event for the East Africans.

Doping violations are a big deal - they nailed these two dopers when so many of the top performers have gotten away with doping! I have a hunch that if these two cheaters weren't busted you would also be defending their performances against any doping accusations like you do all the time. I could see you say something along the lines of...well, they're so talented that they don't need to dope. I could see your refer to some lame survey that such & such percentage believe Boulami & Kiptum were clean. Lol.

What I can't figure out with you is that if you conclude WADA doesn't have anything remotely near a 100% detection rate, why then would you think all of WR performances are clean? Just because they didn't test positive for anything? (in El G's case, there wasn't even a EPO test implemented yet - so the only thing he would be at risk to test positive for would be roids & amphetamines).

High-Octane Dopers wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

Again, what you think about what I think is incorrect.

Some events are more competitive and have more world record attempts.

Some world records last longer because world record attempts are rare.

Kiptum and Boulami did not dominate their events like the other all time greats dominated more competitive events.

Doping violations are a big deal, regardless of event. Referring to an event as weak is a reflection of the best times of an event with few world record attempts, but it doesn't make doping violations a smaller deal.

I have no idea what you're talking about - you've become too enigmatic for me to understand half of what you say anymore (do you do this on purpose to confuse & puzzle people? I have no trouble comprehending the articulate posts from the likes of Armstronglivs, casual observer, TC, etc - but you, it's like some kind of riddle I have to decipher. Lol.).

Boulimi did dominate the SC up to the time of his ban. His WR time from 2002, though annulled, still stands as the faster ever! There's been plenty of athletes particularly Kenyans that have contested this event over a time period of almost 20 yrs and none of these talented athletes have beaten Boulami's time. He also holds 4 of the fastest times in the top 25 including 1st & 4th! I think you just don't want to admit that EPO had a role in that WR performance.

Kiptum's WR time shouldn't be seen as chump change just because you think the HM is some secondary event that less talented athletes contest. A lot of top marathoners have contested a HM or two in their careers. And Kiptum holds the 26th fastest marathoner of all time - impressive since the marathon is probably the signature event for the East Africans.

Doping violations are a big deal - they nailed these two dopers when so many of the top performers have gotten away with doping! I have a hunch that if these two cheaters weren't busted you would also be defending their performances against any doping accusations like you do all the time. I could see you say something along the lines of...well, they're so talented that they don't need to dope. I could see your refer to some lame survey that such & such percentage believe Boulami & Kiptum were clean. Lol.

What I can't figure out with you is that if you conclude WADA doesn't have anything remotely near a 100% detection rate, why then would you think all of WR performances are clean? Just because they didn't test positive for anything? (in El G's case, there wasn't even a EPO test implemented yet - so the only thing he would be at risk to test positive for would be roids & amphetamines).

rekrunner wrote:

Aragon wrote:

Any sane person would've done so when you bragged about your nonexistent "WADA contacts" when simultaneously didn't know anything about the three criteria.

You are much wiser than I am.

For those who can only think in unrelated analogies, I thought of an analogy to illustrate WADA's process of evaluating three criteria, that perhaps an 8th grade science or art student would be able comprehend, to show that the determination process is not BLACK and WHITE.

We can imagine the three criteria as the primary colors, RED, YELLOW and BLUE.

WADA doesn't ban primary colors RED, YELLOW and BLUE, but bans secondary colors ORANGE, GREEN, and PURPLE.

Sometimes determining the existence of primary colors is not obvious.

Rather than accepting the burden of proving a color, some substances are are included if they are determined that they could potentially could contain a primary color.

A banned list is not sorted by color.

Therefore, it is not possible to conclude from the WADA banned list of potentially ORANGE, GREEN and PURPLE substances, which substances are truly RED.

how does that work? wrote:

High-Octane Dopers wrote:

I have no idea what you're talking about - you've become too enigmatic for me to understand half of what you say anymore (do you do this on purpose to confuse & puzzle people? I have no trouble comprehending the articulate posts from the likes of Armstronglivs, casual observer, TC, etc - but you, it's like some kind of riddle I have to decipher. Lol.).

Boulimi did dominate the SC up to the time of his ban. His WR time from 2002, though annulled, still stands as the faster ever! There's been plenty of athletes particularly Kenyans that have contested this event over a time period of almost 20 yrs and none of these talented athletes have beaten Boulami's time. He also holds 4 of the fastest times in the top 25 including 1st & 4th! I think you just don't want to admit that EPO had a role in that WR performance.

Kiptum's WR time shouldn't be seen as chump change just because you think the HM is some secondary event that less talented athletes contest. A lot of top marathoners have contested a HM or two in their careers. And Kiptum holds the 26th fastest marathoner of all time - impressive since the marathon is probably the signature event for the East Africans.

Doping violations are a big deal - they nailed these two dopers when so many of the top performers have gotten away with doping! I have a hunch that if these two cheaters weren't busted you would also be defending their performances against any doping accusations like you do all the time. I could see you say something along the lines of...well, they're so talented that they don't need to dope. I could see your refer to some lame survey that such & such percentage believe Boulami & Kiptum were clean. Lol.

What I can't figure out with you is that if you conclude WADA doesn't have anything remotely near a 100% detection rate, why then would you think all of WR performances are clean? Just because they didn't test positive for anything? (in El G's case, there wasn't even a EPO test implemented yet - so the only thing he would be at risk to test positive for would be roids & amphetamines).

Yes rekrunner is an enigma. But this whole clean/dirty thing is the enigma variations. Boulami had superior technique, so there's that. But this clean/dirty rhetoric is an implication that you have that belief in magic elixir lodged in your brain.

This doesn't give me confidence that your moral compass or calorimetry calibration equipment is more accurate than mine.

I think there are good Hematolgists and bad ones. Real Doctors and real Quacks. I know some people who can back this up.

High-Octane Dopers wrote:

I have no idea what you're talking about - you've become too enigmatic for me to understand half of what you say anymore (do you do this on purpose to confuse & puzzle people? I have no trouble comprehending the articulate posts from the likes of Armstronglivs, casual observer, TC, etc - but you, it's like some kind of riddle I have to decipher. Lol.).

Boulimi did dominate the SC up to the time of his ban. His WR time from 2002, though annulled, still stands as the faster ever! There's been plenty of athletes particularly Kenyans that have contested this event over a time period of almost 20 yrs and none of these talented athletes have beaten Boulami's time. He also holds 4 of the fastest times in the top 25 including 1st & 4th! I think you just don't want to admit that EPO had a role in that WR performance.

Kiptum's WR time shouldn't be seen as chump change just because you think the HM is some secondary event that less talented athletes contest. A lot of top marathoners have contested a HM or two in their careers. And Kiptum holds the 26th fastest marathoner of all time - impressive since the marathon is probably the signature event for the East Africans.

Doping violations are a big deal - they nailed these two dopers when so many of the top performers have gotten away with doping! I have a hunch that if these two cheaters weren't busted you would also be defending their performances against any doping accusations like you do all the time. I could see you say something along the lines of...well, they're so talented that they don't need to dope. I could see your refer to some lame survey that such & such percentage believe Boulami & Kiptum were clean. Lol.

What I can't figure out with you is that if you conclude WADA doesn't have anything remotely near a 100% detection rate, why then would you think all of WR performances are clean? Just because they didn't test positive for anything? (in El G's case, there wasn't even a EPO test implemented yet - so the only thing he would be at risk to test positive for would be roids & amphetamines).