10miles @ HMP-MP pace

Kvothe wrote:

Impala31 wrote:

whaat?

Nobody does 16k at 21k pace or 30k pace.

That is way too hard.

Is it? I do one hour at half marathon pace and 50mins faster than half pace as tempos. If youre not doing workouts like these, those last miles of the marathon burn you out. I do my easy runs very easy to be fresh for workouts like these. I probably do one of these tempos, along with other workouts, three weeks out of four.

Wow. Really? 60 mins at half pace regularly? I would not even be capable of holding my half pace for 60 minutes in a race setting unless I was nearing max fitness. I am not calling you a liar, but maybe a workout hero? I hate to use the pejorative, but this seems crazy to me.

1. 10 miles easy/10 miles marathon pace

2. 10 x 1 mile or 5 x 2 miles or 3 x 3 miles at HM pace.

Stuff like like.

One weekly MP focused workout, One weekly HM focused workout or mike repeats etc then one long run.

Alan

Runningart2004 wrote:

1. 10 miles easy/10 miles marathon pace

2. 10 x 1 mile or 5 x 2 miles or 3 x 3 miles at HM pace.

Stuff like like.

One weekly MP focused workout, One weekly HM focused workout or mike repeats etc then one long run.

Alan

Good stuff here from Art and similar to what helped me drop nearly an hour in my marathon performance.

GBohannon wrote:

Runningart2004 wrote:

1. 10 miles easy/10 miles marathon pace

2. 10 x 1 mile or 5 x 2 miles or 3 x 3 miles at HM pace.

Stuff like like.

One weekly MP focused workout, One weekly HM focused workout or mike repeats etc then one long run.

Alan

Good stuff here from Art and similar to what helped me drop nearly an hour in my marathon performance.

To clarify - workouts fast and high in volume would be done during peak training weeks (from 8 weeks out up to 2 weeks out or something similar)

GBohannon wrote:

GBohannon wrote:

Good stuff here from Art and similar to what helped me drop nearly an hour in my marathon performance.

To clarify - workouts fast and high in volume would be done during peak training weeks (from 8 weeks out up to 2 weeks out or something similar)

Yea it's obviously a buildup and there are many ways to do it. You could alternate a Long Run with a Long Fast Finish Run, ie: a Long Run that builds from 1:45 to 2:30/Long Fast Finish Run that builds from 1:30 to 2:00 with the final 5-10mi segment at MP.

You could then alternate HM pace work with much faster work, ie: HM pace 20-30min tempo to long tempo intervals up to 4x2mi or 3x3/Faster Intervals mile repeats or 800s.

You then have an standard MP effort Run that at first is just a progression run that starts easy then faster as you go along for 8-10mi and this progresses to stand alone MP efforts of 6, 8, 10, 12, and 15mi.

My best 'thons had a 15mi MP run about 3 weeks out and lots of MP-HM stuff.

Alan

OK, so it sounds like 10 miles at MP is maybe a little too hard of a weekly workout for someone who is really good at marathons (someone running under 2:30). But what if your marathon PR is only 3:00? a 10 miler at 3 hour MP wouldn't be that hard, would it? I ask because my marathon PR is around 3 hours but I can run 10 miles at MP without too much trouble: I actually do this weekly for several weeks near the end of a marathon buildup (and I actually go a little faster than MP). Does this mean I am training too hard?

This is quite difficult, I recently attempted it and did not complete. Depends how close you are to your goal race for sure. I'm still 3 months out and its hot out, give me another month and change and this workout shouldn't be as difficult.

LangleyHighxc wrote:

OK, so it sounds like 10 miles at MP is maybe a little too hard of a weekly workout for someone who is really good at marathons (someone running under 2:30). But what if your marathon PR is only 3:00? a 10 miler at 3 hour MP wouldn't be that hard, would it? I ask because my marathon PR is around 3 hours but I can run 10 miles at MP without too much trouble: I actually do this weekly for several weeks near the end of a marathon buildup (and I actually go a little faster than MP). Does this mean I am training too hard?

I think it's going to be tough no matter what your MP is. It's all relative given your fitness. I think perhaps you are actually fitter than you think and/or you need to adjust the workout since perhaps you've gotten too good at it--e.g. you've practiced it enough and your body needs a better/new stimulus. Given the endurance nature of marathons, I think it's best to do the 10 MP workout with some miles on your legs. Run 8-10 miles at easy pace first and then launch into the MP work.

MP pace stuff on its own, on fresh legs, isn't too challenging. But in the thick of a marathon build, I'd say 4+ miles of MP work is challenging, and should always be done as part of a larger workout where you are tiring your legs with easy miles first in order to simulate the demands on the marathon race. I don't know how much benefit you are getting out of a straight 10 @ MP run.

I was surprised the consensus seemed to be that OP's workout is not that bad. But now the consensus seems to be it would be very demanding, and I agree--it would. I think this workout can be done but just once and perhaps as a capstone workout towards the final weeks of the marathon. As mentioned above, I agree with others that probably the best thing to do is run easy the first 8-10 miles and then start throwing in MP--at first start off with 4MP, then 6 in the week or so, then 8, etc. Another alternative would be to turn OP's workout into a progression. Start at MP+30, do MP in the middle miles and then finish at HM or HM -10.

LangleyHighxc wrote:

OK, so it sounds like 10 miles at MP is maybe a little too hard of a weekly workout for someone who is really good at marathons (someone running under 2:30). But what if your marathon PR is only 3:00? a 10 miler at 3 hour MP wouldn't be that hard, would it? I ask because my marathon PR is around 3 hours but I can run 10 miles at MP without too much trouble: I actually do this weekly for several weeks near the end of a marathon buildup (and I actually go a little faster than MP). Does this mean I am training too hard?

Definitely a different ballpark when your marathon pace is over a minute faster than your normal run pace. My gut says it is probably more doable when they are closer together.

10 miles at MP is one where it's enough to put you on the fritz a little but shouldn't be crushing you by any means. Would be very tedious to do week in week out.

LangleyHighxc wrote:

OK, so it sounds like 10 miles at MP is maybe a little too hard of a weekly workout for someone who is really good at marathons (someone running under 2:30). But what if your marathon PR is only 3:00? a 10 miler at 3 hour MP wouldn't be that hard, would it? I ask because my marathon PR is around 3 hours but I can run 10 miles at MP without too much trouble: I actually do this weekly for several weeks near the end of a marathon buildup (and I actually go a little faster than MP). Does this mean I am training too hard?

MP and HMP are very different. I think most agree 10 miles at MP is a hard but doable workout in peak fitness.

10miles at hmp though, that’s stupid.

For what it is worth I did 5k x2 at slightly below mp (but above hmp) with 3 min rest and it was albeit too easy.

LangleyHighxc wrote:

OK, so it sounds like 10 miles at MP is maybe a little too hard of a weekly workout for someone who is really good at marathons (someone running under 2:30). But what if your marathon PR is only 3:00? a 10 miler at 3 hour MP wouldn't be that hard, would it? I ask because my marathon PR is around 3 hours but I can run 10 miles at MP without too much trouble: I actually do this weekly for several weeks near the end of a marathon buildup (and I actually go a little faster than MP). Does this mean I am training too hard?

I wouldn't say that's too hard on its own. Even for a faster marathoner, a weekly 10 mi at MP is really no problem. It's the bigger context of training that makes it hard -- if you're running 100 mpw with 2 workouts, then running the last 10 of a 20 miler at MP, you're probably going to be beat.

In my experience doing 2 workouts plus a hard MP long run was hard to do every week, and I had to either cut a workout or alternate hard/steady long runs.

This is spot on. I was probably best at 3000m. My marathon was nearer 90 sec per mile outside my 5k pace, and 50 sec per mile outside my 10 mile pace, so 10 miles at marathon pace would have just been a routine steady run.

One of my Strava buddies ran 10 miles in 53:20 dropping the last 4 miles 5:05, 4:58, 5:01, 5:09

shake and rake wrote:

Is 10 miles at a pace between HMP and MP a crazy hard workout?

It's a pretty hard workout but probably doable.

I like an 8 mile tempo with 4 @ MP & 4 @ HMP. I think once you get over 8-10 miles @ HMP most of us are leaving our race in training. This workout is only 4 @ HMP. 8-10 x mile @ HMP w./ short rest. 12-15 x 1km @ HMP w./ short rest, 4 x 2 miles @ HMP w./ short rest, are all about where I would max out in a build.

You just want to be careful with the paces. If you're truly running MP & HMP for 10 miles, that's fine but if you take the MP too hard & race some of the workout closer to 10k it could come back to bite you. I like 10 miles @ MP on its own. Just make sure to take rest seriously after you churn out a big session like this & time it out right to your goal race.

I'm wondering how you guys view the info in this video by Timo Mostert (Coach at American Fork). To me, it sounds like he's talking about a hard 11-12 miler every 7-10 days and I would wager that his kids are doing it faster than what they could do for a marathon.

He mentioned Conner McMillan running 72 minutes for 13 miles, but it was also in the context of a "goal workout" or something that he just wanted to accomplish before he left high school. But I can imagine that Conner likely also did his weekly 70 minute runs covering 12-12.5, which is probably a faster pace than what he would have done had you thrown him in a marathon.

Oops, forgot the link

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghb43uDveJI

GBohannon wrote:

shake and rake wrote:

Is 10 miles at a pace between HMP and MP a crazy hard workout?

Depends on how close your marathon pace is to your actual “marathon potential”. If you’re coming close to maximizing your abilities on marathon race day then this workout would be pretty damn hard. If you’re like most and running 45+ seconds slower than your 5k race pace for a marathon, then probably not that hard.

Fully agree. I could easily do that workout multiple times a week the for my first marathon (and in fact did), but now as I get closer to my potential those workouts are reserved and built up to as other posters have suggested.

I find a lot of this really puzzling. My capstone workout for a Marathon is generally 18 miles with 15 @ Marathon pace. I just did that workout two weeks ago, and my last 5 miles were done in cut down fashion, down to faster than my HMP. It was quite hard, and I would only ever do it once a cycle. But if I lop 5 miles off of the front of the thing, it’s totally doable. I generally have at least 10 miles continuous at Marathon pace (often a little hot, so between Marathon and HMP) every 3 weeks starting about 8 weeks into a Marathon build ... it usually goes 10, 12, (HM tuneup race), 15. I regard this as solid (but pretty basic) Marathon Specific work. I’ll paraphrase what somebody else said ... if you can’t hold 10 seconds under goal pace for 10 miles pretty handily, good luck holding it for 26!

Would I do 10 between MP and HMP weekly? Nope. But it’s nowhere near “crazy hard.” The only caveat, as mentioned by a previous poster, would be if you’re not actually training for a marathon. Then it becomes both a) Crazy Hard, and b) Pointless.

Most of his runners over the years run those 12 mile runs with 2 miles easy to start, then the last 10 around 60-70 seconds per mile slower than their cross country race pace. A tough workout for sure, especially foe high schoolers at altitude.